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Hayek may well have noted, as Jonah writes, "that United States was the one place in the world where you could call yourself a 'conservative' and be a lover of liberty" because of America's peculiar past as a liberal nation.

The past? We can still be a liberal nation (and conservative also), but not if we give our liberal heritage away to every ultra statist who claims it. They need to be challanged everytime they claim the title.

1 posted on 12/22/2001 8:31:03 PM PST by jackbob
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To: jackbob; *libertarians; *Paleo_list
For more on this debate see What Libertarianism Isn't
2 posted on 12/22/2001 8:50:05 PM PST by Libertarianize the GOP
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To: jackbob
Well, I think that if tolerance means accepting very destructive things and refusing to at least try to change them, then it is a gutless empty fraud. If you see a person about to consume a drug that you KNOW will destroy their life, or you see a young frightened girl being dragged by a feminazi to a clinic to turn her unborn child into 3 Lbs of ground chuck and you don't do anything about it, then you have sunk to such utter ethical confusion that it would be a liability to know you. These days, most of what passes for high minded tolerance is actually low lying gutlessness.

Conservatism has been falsely labeled as filled with hate and anger, but it is actually the [pseudo]liberal that is nearly consumed by hate, class warfare, envy, etc. I say pseudo-liberal because ~90% of people, and 100% of the politicians, who claim to be liberal are really pseudo-liberal. A real liberal has compassion for others, but gives from their own time talent and treasure to help. A true liberal also has a high sense of right and wrong and a high sense of courage in defending the weak and innocent. The one person that I know who fits the description of a true liberal is Mother Theresa. I cannot thiink of a single so called political liberal who can measure up to the above description, do you?

3 posted on 12/22/2001 9:28:57 PM PST by det dweller too
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To: jackbob
The past? We can still be a liberal nation (and conservative also), but not if we give our liberal heritage away to every ultra statist who claims it. They need to be challanged everytime they claim the title.

I am disappointed that you resort to the term "statist" given your past civility in defending your libertarian philosophy. Be that as it may, I am glad that the debate has been settled as to the myth that libertarians are just conservatives in all but name. The fact is that libertarians and liberals share a family tree not libertarians and conservatives.

5 posted on 12/22/2001 10:03:48 PM PST by Texasforever
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To: jackbob
Goldberg tried to blame Islamic converts on Libertarianism? You got to be kidding!!!!!! I kinda liked Jonah early on, but he's getting a bit daffy.
9 posted on 12/22/2001 10:33:08 PM PST by jlogajan
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To: jackbob
Jonah is proving to be just another feather brained liberarian basher, no better than some of the meatheads here at FR. IE, - this from his article of the 12th, linked above:

------ liberals see no problem with using the government to impose their cultural beliefs on others; they just won't admit that's what they're doing.

In this sense, cultural libertarians are less bigoted than their liberal cousins. The libertarians think all ideologies — so long as there's no governmental component — are equal.

Indeed, RINO's like Goldberg see no problem either, with using the government to impose their cultural beliefs on others; they just won't admit that's what they're doing.

And, libertarians certainly do NOT think all ideologies — so long as there's no governmental component — are equal. -- For instance, the few libertarians on FR can not even agree on such basics of libertarian ideology as the non agression principle.

Jonah's generalizations are the pure BS of an outclassed mind, arguing of prinicples he doesn't and can't understand.

10 posted on 12/22/2001 10:37:09 PM PST by tpaine
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To: jackbob
final word.... AMEN
17 posted on 12/23/2001 1:07:04 AM PST by exmoor
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To: jackbob
Coddling 'tarians - especially dopertarians - in hopes they'll vote for Repoblican candidates is contraindicated. If they figure out what's best, fine, and if not - we didn't sell out decency.
34 posted on 12/23/2001 9:15:41 PM PST by 185JHP
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To: jackbob
Gillespie has published nasty little anti-Catholic pieces under a pseudonym for the satire site suck.com. Like Jonah, he's much a buffoon at times. Jonah, at least, doesn't attack his own heritage, and doesn't make a point of tearing down the religion of others.

Gillespie's world view has little to do with "tolerance" and much more to do with liberation through transgression. Perhaps "liberation" is too strong a word. It's just the throwing off of an heritage. "Tolerance" is a much more complicated concept with many more ironies and pitfalls than you can find in Nick Gillespie's view of the world.

45 posted on 12/23/2001 11:56:25 PM PST by x
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To: jackbob
another pseudo-intellectual thesaurus piece
76 posted on 12/24/2001 7:33:40 AM PST by PatrioticAmerican
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To: jackbob
There can be little question that we are facing increasing choice--not simply in economic but cultural and social terms, too, where the "Chinese menu" has exploded into a wide-ranging buffet. Anthropologist Grant McCracken has observed what he terms "plenitude," or the "quickening speciation" of social groups, *gender types and lifestyles. "Where once there was simplicity and limitation ... there is now social difference, and that difference proliferates into ever more diversity, variety, heterogeneity," writes McCracken in 1997's "Plenitude."

*What does this phrase really mean; the varying roles of the sexes or transgender issues? It's a greasy slope and standardless; but perhaps that's the point and center (hence the platitudinous terms and phrases he quotes); and with standards that particular center won't hold.

His reply is cheerfully nihilistic. I am not afraid of the political and social ethos he describes I am turned off by it. His acription of fear as the factor driving most conservatives is wishful thinking on his part. IMO they don't fear it; they repulse it, which makes for a greater willingness to extend the battle against it.

I basically consider myself a conservative, but I hold absolutely no allegiance to party. I could vote as easily for a Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Green or Right to Life candidate, if he/she possessed the qualities I judge to be necessary in a leader. But the more I become acquainted with the manifesto of Libertarianism, via its best and brightest proponents, the more I find myself rejecting it a little more with each encounter. Not because of particular stances the party takes; some of which I'm in agreement with, but because of that palpable nihilism which this very bright author vehemently denies, but which his expression of thought, as penned in the above essay, belies.

92 posted on 12/24/2001 8:15:42 AM PST by Aedammair
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To: jackbob
Final Word...yeah...Uh-Huhhh...
139 posted on 12/24/2001 8:20:28 PM PST by unamused
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To: jackbob
bump
190 posted on 12/26/2001 10:21:18 AM PST by Wordsmith
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