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To: RaceBannon
Yeah, the KJV may indeed literally have "extra words," because they had access to far fewer and far older Greek manuscripts. It is dishonest of KJV-onliers to represent the issue as if moderns were simply casting aside words out of doctrinal bias, rather than adapting the rendering in line with the wealth of manuscript evidence we now possess. As if the KJV translators didn't use the best ms. evidence they had.

I'm disappointed in your response. You asked for passages where the KJV obscures the deity of Christ and modern translations don't, I gave you three. Do you care about the evidence? Or are you locked into a position that forces you to overlook evidence?

God spoke in Hebrew and Greek. When I'm readig His Word in English, I want the best translation in my language I can get. No one can argue rationally that the KJV fits that description.

Dan

20 posted on 12/22/2001 7:46:20 AM PST by BibChr
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To: BibChr
First, go to my link. I read what you called obscurations, and disagree that they obscure. Also, if you are basing your verses on the NIV, then you are going by another text than the KJV text, you are using Westcott/Hort, two apostates in my opinion.

Go to the link I provided, it spells it out exactly, verse by verse what the differences are between the KJV and the NIV. I downloaded it, it is 60 pages in WORD format. Your eyes will be opened my friend! :-)

24 posted on 12/22/2001 8:09:57 AM PST by RaceBannon
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To: BibChr; RaceBannon
So much debate over words, and not enough pondering of the Word...

I like to think of the Word of God as the spirit of a living person, and the translations as the flesh. We are so tempted to see the outside of the person, the fleshly incarnation and argue and contend over its appearance.

But the flesh - as is the translation - is just a material covering over the fundamental existence of both person and idea. Strip away the words, and the Word will still endure. The Word cannot be contained in a mere vessel as a book. The book is NOTHING, but the meaning is EVERYTHING!

When I read a copy of the Bible - be it KJV or NIV or NASV, whatever - I don't want to be captivated by the words... I want God to teach me something new in His Word, His thoughts that transcend mere phonetics and semantics.

I've studied the KJV-Onlyists position for some time. It is my earnest belief that they have misplaced sincere and humble missionary zeal for a sense of fleeting material power... power over words, so that they might interpret the words as they see fit. Not all of them are as wacky, but some of them remind me of the Taliban. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I can also see where not every translation is a good one, and that to tailor-make a translation for a certain segment of the population is to cheapen the meaning of the Word. Both, in the end, have the same ulterior motive: power. Not the service of the Kingdom of God, but simply a state of power in this world.

I use the NIV for my personal devotions, and have never had any problems with it. And don't anyone bother forwarding along a "big goose egg" NIV quiz: I've seen it before and it doesn't impress me. Such tactics only testify about the arrogance of the KJV-Onlyist position, and the tables could just as easily be turned on the KJV.

God's Word is too big to be confined to one translation of the Bible. The KJV isn't the be-all-and-end-all of translations... indeed, no translation on this earth will be, apart from the original autographs of every single book of the Bible. Nor will it be Greek or Hebrew or English that is the lingua franca of Heaven: it would be far less than glorious to shackle pure thoughts and ideas down with the mundanity of words.

32 posted on 12/22/2001 8:47:07 AM PST by Darth Sidious
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To: BibChr

THE KING JAMES BIBLE


Copyright © 1987-1998 RLP. All Rights Reserved. You are encouraged to freely distribute this writing in its complete form so long as there is no charge (except reasonable duplication fees) and this cover page must accompany the document at all times. Quotations of this text are permitted and encouraged.

THE KING JAMES BIBLE

The King James Version is the most popular translation of the Bible in existence. We shall discuss the history of this book and examine its construction and sequencing.

When Queen Elizabeth of England died in 1603, King James VI of Scotland took the throne as King James I. There were at least three popular versions of the Bible at that time: The Geneva Bible, the Great Bible and the Bishop's Bible. In January, 1604 the Puritans asked King James I for a new translation. Work on the new Bible began in 1607 with 47 translators who met twice each day. The translators worked in 6 groups at 3 major universities. 2 groups worked at Oxford, 2 groups worked at Cambridge and the last 2 groups did their work at Westminster. In 1611, the first version was ready for publication. As with any other publication, revisions were made. The Apocrypha, writings apparently of Christian nature, were at first included in the King James Version. Because of their dubious authenticity, they were eventually eliminated in subsequent revisions. Today's version is quite close to a revision published in 1769. However, there is now available a Revised King James Version which is even more contemporary.

The King James writers recognized the translation problems they would encounter. In the King James Bible, the italicized words are actually "extra" words inserted to make the meaning clearer; these words are not actually found in the Hebrew or Greek language. Let's look at the appendix in a King James Bible:

Readers of the King James Version now and again come upon words printed in italics; that is to say, with slanting letters. Some have supposed, mistakenly, that these words were printed in this fashion for emphasis. This is not the case. The words in italics are words which do not have any equivalents in the Hebrew or Greek text. They are words which have been supplied by the translators in order to make the meaning of the sentence clearer, or in order to make the passage read more smoothly in English. Numerous italicized words are found in the fifth chapter of Matthew, and they occur with almost equal frequency in other parts of the Scriptures.

The Geneva Bible, which was a pioneer version in many different ways, was the first to use italics in this fashion (4, italicized words mine).

The Bible is actually a collection of 66 books written by at least 40 human authors. Christianity, which is based on the Bible, is the only religion that claims a resurrected Savior, Christ. The Bible is a work of long compilation since the writings of its books span at least 1500 years. It is an ancient writing in that the last author of any of the books, the Apostle John, died approximately 1900 years ago. The two major divisions are the Old Testament and the New Testament.

The Old Testament is comprised of 39 books, Genesis to Malachi

The books of the Old Testament were written over a period of about 1000 years. The Old Testament can be divided into 4 major subdivisions:

(A) History: Genesis thru Esther (17 books)
(B) Poetry/Wisdom Literature: Job thru Song of Solomon (5 books)
(C) Major Prophets: Isaiah thru Daniel (5 books)
(D) Minor Prophets: Hosea thru Malachi (12 books)


Genesis to Esther are 17 books which deal with History.

The first 5 books are known as the Pentateuch and are Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. These books are also known as the Mosaic Law because it is generally accepted that Moses was the author of all 5 books or at least the majority of each. The books also cover the pre-Canaan or Promised Land existence of the Israelites.

The next 12 books are Joshua to Esther and can be divided into to 2 subcategories. The first 9 of these 12 books are Joshua, Judges, Ruth, I Samuel, II Samuel, I Kings, II Kings, I Chronicles and II Chronicles. These books record the experiences in Canaan.

The last 3 of these 12 books are Ezra, Nehemiah and Esther. These books are the post-exile from Canaan history.

The 5 books in the center of the Old Testament are Poetry and Wisdom Literature.

These books are Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon. These books contain, respectively, writings of the 5 following subjects:

(1) human tragedy and suffering;
(2) poetry of praise, prophesy, problems and peace;
(3) wisdom for life;
(4) the meaninglessness of life apart from God and the futility of autonomous human wisdom;
(5) God's gift of the relation of love between men and women, which is actually a foreshadowing of the relationship between Christ and the Church.

The last 17 books of the Old Testament are the Prophets.

These are divided into 2 main categories: the Major Prophets and the Minor Prophets.

The Major Prophets are made up of 5 books and are Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel and Daniel.

The Minor Prophets are made up of the last 12 books of the Old Testament and are Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

The New Testament is comprised of 27 books, Matthew to Revelation.

The books of the New Testament were written over a period of approximately 100 years. The approximate 1500 year span of the writings of the Bible is completed in the roughly 400 years between the last writing of the Old Testament and the first writing of the New Testament. There are four major subdivisions of the New Testament:

(A) History: 4 Gospels and the Book of Acts (5 books)
(B) Paul's Epistles: Romans thru Philemon (13 books)
(C) General Epistles: Hebrews thru Jude (8 books)
(D) Revelation (1 book)


The first 5 books are Historical books which include the Gospels of Jesus Christ and the Book of Acts.

Rest of article here (printable version) ---> The King James Bible

40 posted on 12/22/2001 10:19:02 AM PST by Bobby777
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