No offence, but Muslims love Jesus as much as Christians do

The Telegraph (U.K.) ^ | 12/19/2001 | John Casey

[the_doc]

No offense was taken, I assure you.

[The_Reader_David]

This is precisely why St. John of Damascus, the first Christian to write a decisive critique of Islam (which he knew from original sources having been an official in the court of the Caliph at a time when Islam's claim of tolerance had been tarnished chiefly by the actions of its then-dead "prophet" and not so much by the actions its living adherents as is now the case, but I digress...) considered it a CHRISTIAN HERESY, rather than an separate religion.

[The_Reader_David]

You are incorrect in identifying the Christian conception of the Almighty God with the Father. The One God, the Almighty Creator is the All-Holy Trinity, one in essence (ousia), triple in person (hypostasis). The Holy Church teaches that all three hypostases were active in the creation, and that Man is created in the image and likeness of the Holy Trinity ("our image and likeness"--plural posessive), not of one of the Divine Persons. Likewise all visible theophanies in the Old Testament are understood to be manifestations of the Pre-Incarnate Divine Logos ("No man has seen the Father"), while it is the Holy Spirit who inspired the Prophets. The One God transcends all binary distinctions which are applicable only to the created, in particular the distinction between unity and multiplicity, and (in the Incarnation) the distinction between transcenence and immanence.

This is the chief reason as an Orthodox Christian, I see all subsequent claims of divine revelation as prima facia false: they all step back from the truely radical revelation of God's Otherness which is shown forth in the Gospel as it has been receive by the Holy Orthodox Church. Whether it is Islam, Bah'ai or Sikhism, they all return God to the prison of a humanly-conceived transcendence, letting Him relate to us only through texts or rules.

[Flying Circus]

What slur! I have posted it directly from your own website. You can sugar coat it however you want, but the truth of exactly what you are saying is that the Muslim faith is God honoring and good enough to please Him and good enough for salvation. This makes the Muslim faith equal with the Catholic faith.

What slur? That slur. That whole paragraph and everything implied with it.

The Section of The Universal Catechism you posted does not support your claim that the Catholic Church is in any way equvalent to the Muslems. Nor does any other part of the section from which the quote was taken. There is no equivalency to any other religion, only the recognition that other religions may have parts of the truth. The complete truth is found only in Jesus and His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways." ³²⁵

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, ³²⁶ "the first to hear the Word of God." ³²⁷ The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ", ³²⁸ "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." ³²⁹

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." ³³⁰

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . . ³³¹

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life." ³³²

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair. ³³³

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood. ³³⁴

According to this damnable and cowardly system (that is the very essence of "lukewarm") it would be better to not missionary to anybody. It would have been better if Paul had stayed home as he would have been spared many beatings. And Peter was a fool for following after Jesus for the end of that road was a Cross. Better to keep the people ignorant and finish out a fat and comfortable life.

The blood of (Catholic) Christian martyrs is fresh on the ground everyday in the Middle East, SouthEast Asia and Africa by the hands of the Moslims. The Catholic Church in no way accepts or teaches the "cowardly" and "lukewarm" system you are claiming. It is, unfortunately, very difficult to teach Christianity if all of the potential converts are too scared for their lives to even dare to listen. What is amazing that some do listen and will practice the faith underground knowing that if they are caught they will be killed.

[wwjdn]

The Bible clearly shows that Jesus was the one son of God, therefore he is divinity, he is a God. He rose from death and lives today.

[pray4liberty]

John 16 also says "The time will come when they will kill you and think they do Me a service."

Sure seems to be happening now, doesn't it?

[wwjdn]

To Muslims, a PROPHET is the Sign of God on Earth. We believe Jesus was "the Infallible, the Immaculate Prophet". Like Moses, God gave him power beyond all men.

Therefin lies the problem...Jesus was not "like" Moses. Moses was blessed by God as a prophet, Jesus is God not a prophet.

[CCWoody]

See #224 & 190! Flying Circus doesn't like it that I am pointing out that they are making their faith equal with Muslim faith.

[Jerry_M]

Believe it or not, I have been following this thread. Unlike you, I don't have the stomach to confront much of what I see here!

[JusticeLives]

"Do you have any thoughts or ideas or suggestions as to why one might choose such a screen name? I think it just came out of that vast ocean of the subconscious and has meaning...but I'm not sure what. SB"

I don't have any idea as to why you chose that name. It just popped out at me after reading your post and thought "wow, this guy's comments and name are poles apart..what dichotomy" or close to that. Then it just seemed so out of step with the great suffering of 9-11 terrorist attack by people I think of as unciviled and savage, I guess. Enjoy the holiday season, too!

[Savage Beast]

I see what you mean. It is true that I am His. He is Mine. I follow. He leads. He leads me to the only Music That can soothe the savage beast.