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To: jackbob
I don't think of leftists as statists in the slightest.

Well, it seems to be that leftists are functionally statists, except for some tiny fringe that actually may be anarchist or minarchist. But who are these fringe people and where do you find them?

The right has a very visible group of anti-statists in the patriot and constitutionalist crowd, and also in the right-leaning libertarians. I don't see many truly anti-statist leftists. Most of the "anarchists" you see are just stone-throwing statist socialist punks.

How many people on the so-called left would actually fall on the left end of the left/right scale if you label the ends "statist" and "anti-statist" (with anti-statist on the left), as you seem to do. I think you'd end up with more people conventionally identified with the right falling towards the left end of the scale.

And how can leftists be anti-statist if they would approve of a government that forces altruism on people and metes out cosmic justice? And why wouldn't they seek to create such a government? Is the left dependant on the right to create governing structures? Can the left even exist without the right?

It seems to me that the leftists you describe may exist only in theory or folklore. By your definition, leftists are anti-statists, but by your description of their beliefs, they can't be anti-statists. Could it be that you just wish leftists actually had an anti-statist core?

219 posted on 12/23/2001 12:31:03 PM PST by Yardstick
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To: Yardstick
I think the wishful thinking is on your part. Its easier to just jump to conclusions and define them away, than it is to look closer at them, identify their values, and address the questions they raise. I've met very few leftists (those who call themselves leftists) who were not anti-statist in their beliefs (actions being another matter). The range of philosophical beliefs supporting their positions, are I would guess, about three times as many as can be found on the right.

I would say, most leftists view the state, not as an ends in and of itself, but as tool to be utilized for bring down, or keep in check, the various establishments which they perceive as being equally as threatening as the state.

It is this view of reality, that makes them easy pickings for both corrupt and ultra state advocates, who will use words such as cooperation, democracy, equality, participation, sharing, etc., while actually intending the exact opposite. I say shame on conservatives for not only letting them get away with it, but actually supporting their effort by citing the terms as taken, and then standing against them.

In 1988, I read a speech delivered by Jesse Jackson, which was as libertarian as any I've read by any Republican in the past three decade. Jackson displayed a deep concern about the survival of the Free Enterprise economic system, and a need to take action to save it. Of course Jackson is a corrupt political manipulator, who will play the socialist card at the drop of a dime. But that is not the point. The audience he was speaking to were democrats.

Likewise, polls taken of Democratic voters have consistently shown an average 15% of them to range from fiscal conservative to full libertarian. Surprisingly, these voters are at the upper end in education among democratic voter.

But none of this has any more to do with leftists, than do television personalities defining what is left and what is not. Today's leftist movement in America is pretty much limited to several hundred magazines and periodicals. The left in America went into a steep decline at the end of the Vietnam War. Then the Aquarian Conspiracy and the voluntarist movement that grew out of it, pretty much captured the rest of them.

What remains of the left is factionalized, ranging from Whole Earth Catalog and Mother Jones reader types, to the radically distort the realty of everything magazines. Of course their are the protest anything type that want to return to the good old days of the late 60s, early 70s, or want to recreate that era, having been born to late and missed out on it. And then their are the usual assortment peace activists. Its not much to be concerned about at this time. But if unified by a single direction, I say this left has tremendous potential, awaiting the right circumstances, and thereby should not be taken lightly. It is only a matter of time, before the next era of 'from the bottom' activism comes out to set in motion the cultural outlook which will define the next era of political reality. Thsi time, the movement for greater liberty must capture that left, or leave the next generation a level of government tyranny beyond anything possible at this time.

221 posted on 12/23/2001 11:27:20 PM PST by jackbob
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