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Mars Odyssey Detects Signs of Water
BBC ^ | Friday, 14 December, 2001, 16:50 GMT | David Whitehouse

Posted on 12/14/2001 2:39:25 PM PST by grimalkin

The Mars Odyssey (MO) spacecraft has made its first significant discovery: it has detected large deposits of hydrogen - possibly water - near the Red Planet's poles.

Reporting MO's preliminary observations, scientists said the first pass by the probe's neutron spectrometer had revealed evidence of the element in soil at high latitudes.

"It is big," Bill Feldman, of Los Alamos National Laboratory, said of the strength of the signal picked up by Odyssey.

The results indicate large amounts of hydrogen on the surface, a likely sign of water-ice. The observations "are precisely what you would expect for a very hydrogen-rich environment", Feldman said.

Water, water, everywhere?

American space agency (Nasa) scientists said they were excited by the initial indications of hydrogen deposits, describing the readings sent back as clearer, more definite and much earlier than had been expected.

"We were expecting that it would take many orbits to determine the presence of hydrogen," said Stephen Saunders, a MO scientist. "But we saw it the very first time."

Scientists already know that water exists on Mars; it is frozen in the polar icecaps and exists as vapour in thin clouds.

There is also good evidence that water flowed on the planet's surface in the recent past, carving out deep channels and canyons.

Mapping mission

Significant water-ice deposits easily accessible from the surface would make it much more likely that life existed at some stage on Mars.

The MO is currently tightening its orbit around the Red Planet for a mapping mission that will get underway in January. It will use a battery of instruments to survey the planet's surface.

As well as the neutron spectrometer, its gamma-ray spectrometer will chart the chemical composition of the surface. Its infrared camera will peer at areas on the night side of Mars.

"We think it will be a very exciting winter and spring," James Garvin, a Nasa scientist, told a meeting of the American Geophysical Union in San Francisco.


TOPICS: Front Page News; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: crevolist
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To: Exnihilo
but as I mentioned, naturalism is a scientific philosophy, not empirically verified by science with respect to biology.

Lot of things have not been proven or verified by science yet. Sometimes the more we discover or prove, the more questions it creates.

81 posted on 12/16/2001 8:18:47 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Joe Hadenuf
How large is the Universe? Is it infinite? If not, what is "outside" the Universe? How can we envision something being beyond the Universe?
82 posted on 12/16/2001 8:33:30 PM PST by TigerDSL
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To: TigerDSL
How large is the Universe?

I don't have a clue.

Is it infinite? If not, what is "outside" the Universe?

I have heard two different trains of thought, one a closed universe and another open. I think the current belief is that its an open ever expanding universe.

How can we envision something being beyond the Universe?

I have tried that, but after a while it hurts my brain. When I was very young, it was the brick wall, but then, it was always, well whats behing the wall?

83 posted on 12/16/2001 8:40:26 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: TigerDSL
The universe is estimated at between 11 and 15 billion years old and has been expanding (spacetime) ever since an event called the Big Bang.
84 posted on 12/16/2001 8:45:26 PM PST by RadioAstronomer
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To: RadioAstronomer
His other question was how large is the universe?
85 posted on 12/16/2001 8:48:54 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: RadioAstronomer
What is the current age estimate of Earth. 3 or 4 billions years keeps coming to mind. Is this close or are there updated figures?
86 posted on 12/16/2001 9:04:39 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: RadioAstronomer
The problem is that the numbers most people enter for the Drake equation overlook some very fundamental facts about our galaxy. The very first entry into the equation, the rate at which suitable stars are formed, is MUCH lower than most people assume. To wit: Much as our solar system has a "band of life," or a region of space where life can exist, so does the galaxy itself.

Deep in the center of our galaxy, for example, is a large black hole. Any planets in this region would be heavily irradiated and subject to massive stresses that aren't exactly conducive to life. Move out of the core and into the "bulge", and your radiation problems die down, but gravitational interaction between the densely packed stars makes stable planetary orbits very difficult to achieve. Novas are also somewhat common in the core region which can't be healthy for nearby life bearing planets. Moreover, the vast majority of stars in this region are Population II type stars with very little metal, and are therefore not likely to support planets, much less life.

Move out of the bulge, and into the inner disk, and the problem reverses...you run into a plethora of metal-heavy but hydrogen-deficient Population I stars. Some of these are very old and have burned out their hydrogen, others have gone dwarf, and still others simply formed in this relatively hydrogen-free section of the galaxy and are distinctly "below average". A star with below average hydrogen content is far less likely to contain water-bearing planets, which is practically a requirement for complex multicellular life forms. Tack on to that the fact that hydrogen-deficient stars burn much cooler than "normal" stars, and we can effectively rule them out as a likely home for E.T.

Moving into the central part of the disk, you find an equilibrium. This region is far enough from the maelstrom of the galactic core and bulge that the hydrogen hasn't been burned or blown away. Its stars are all moving in mostly stable orbits, and enough Population II stars have died in the area to provide plenty of metals. The primary phase of Population I star formation in this part of the galaxy ended several billion years ago, meaning that gamma radiation is relatively low and that this section of the galaxy is comparatively clear of debris. This is, of course, where we are and where any other life is to be found.

And if we move out further? The outer portions of our galactic disk are characterized by immense clouds of dust, many radiation spewing stellar nurseries, more unstable orbits than you'd care to count, and a population of stars that, in whole, is far too young to support complex, intelligent life. Even if a stable and life bearing planet could arise out there, the fact is that nearly all of them are too young to have done so yet.

I remember that when my astronomy professor was teaching this to us, he mentioned its effect on the Drake equation. By refactoring the rate of star formation to limit it to only the portion of the galaxy where complex organic life has a realistic probability of surviving, while leaving the rest of the numbers to the generally accepted probablilities, the equation stated that there were only seven intelligent species in our entire galaxy. Given the massive size of our galaxy, the probability of achieving any kind of meaningful two way communication with one of those seven are effectively nil.

Don't get me wrong. I run Seti@Home on four of my computers and hope against hope that we'll someday make contact with one of those species, but at the same time I'm a realist. The numbers don't lie, and they don't look good.
87 posted on 12/16/2001 9:33:33 PM PST by Arthalion
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To: grimalkin;SierraWasp
Just had a horid thought. If they find life on Mars, will it be considered an endangered species?
88 posted on 12/16/2001 9:38:21 PM PST by farmfriend
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To: Joe Hadenuf
Here are some notes that will give a better explanation ass to expansion and size that a two liner from me:

http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node102.html

89 posted on 12/16/2001 10:22:57 PM PST by RadioAstronomer
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To: Joe Hadenuf
What is the current age estimate of Earth. 3 or 4 billions years keeps coming to mind. Is this close or are there updated figures?

The generally accepted age for the Earth and the rest of the solar sytem is about 4.55 billion years (plus or minus about 1%).

90 posted on 12/16/2001 10:25:00 PM PST by RadioAstronomer
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To: Arthalion
I have read the some same thoughts on this. I don't have enough information to make the assertion that life is non-viable in those regions. An interesting paper you might enjoy can be found here:

http://www.aip.de:8080/groups/sternphysik/stp/PDFFILES/2000/gaia_paper.pdf

91 posted on 12/17/2001 2:27:39 AM PST by RadioAstronomer
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To: Joe Hadenuf
This makes the odds of life elsewhere great.

No, I'm sorry. It doesn't. Have you ever taken a course in statistical probability?
92 posted on 12/17/2001 4:28:19 AM PST by Exnihilo
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To: Joe Hadenuf
Again, it would be illogical to use science, which assumes naturalism, to prove naturalism. In that respect, science will forever be vulnerable because in the end, the entire body of science is based on the assumption of naturalism. Where experiments can be carried out, and repeated, we can trust that in those cases naturalism holds true. For instance, this is the case with gravitational pull on Earth. However, in the realm of biology, naturalism is a philosophical assumption that cannot be verified. I find it amusing that one looks at major morphological similarities in fossilized forms in the Earth's strata and say "Ah ha! Those must be ancestors!". The entire theory of evolution, and abiogenesis as well, rests *entirely* on the philosophical presupposition of naturalism. I don't fault science for this assumption since this is the essence of science, however I am always struck by how many people do not seem to realize this major achilies heel of science, especially in the realm of biology. At any rate, you have your faith, I have mine. Good luck!
93 posted on 12/17/2001 4:34:49 AM PST by Exnihilo
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To: RadioAstronomer
Thanks, I've actually been looking for something a little more definitive on habitable zone forecasting, and that definitely works. This information is useful because, while I don't believe that there are many intelligent life forms in our galaxy, I do believe that there are a large number of human habitable planets awaiting colonization.

I don't have enough information to make the assertion that life is non-viable in those regions.

It's not so much that life is "non-viable" - heck, research on our own planet has showed us that life can pop up in the most unexpected of places - it's that complex, intelligent, multicellular life is unlikely in much of the galaxy. Life of this type requires long burning, metal and hydrogen rich stars. It requires stable orbits. It requires a quiet area unaffected by nearby gravity wells, radiation bursts, or swarms of interstellar debris. Moreover, it requires time...a planet may need more than three billion years before it can raise an intelligent species capable of communication with the stars. There is only one region in our galaxy that meets all these requirements, and that region is contained in a relatively narrow band in the middle of the galactic disk.

The presence of life on planetary bodies outside of this band is indeed possible, but the odds of intelligent life are very, very low. They are so low, in fact, that radio astronomers searching for signs of intelligent extrasolar life would be better off ignoring these to focus their search on the more likely areas first...as astrophysicists and visual astronomers have been recommending for more than a decade.
94 posted on 12/17/2001 8:52:58 AM PST by Arthalion
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To: Johnny Shear
I cannot remember where I heard about this poll, but Christians (an unknown numbers and denominations) were asked if discovering life on other planets would shake their faith. More than 80% said that it would. An amazing number considering that God is supposedly all powerful. Personally, I can't understand why we must be the only sentient life in the Universe, or how anyone could imagine God as incapable of creating other life forms elsewhere.
95 posted on 12/17/2001 10:47:29 AM PST by Scully
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To: isthisnickcool
#2 LMAO
96 posted on 12/17/2001 10:51:35 AM PST by asneditor
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To: RadioAstronomer
Wonderful reference! Thank you for including it!
97 posted on 12/17/2001 10:55:56 AM PST by Scully
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To: Exnihilo
Have you ever taken a course in statistical probability?

Lol, no, and I don't think I need to, to understand that the chances of life are much greater if you have a trillion planets, as opposed to say, 3 planets :o

98 posted on 12/17/2001 11:30:59 AM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Scully
"I can't understand why we must be the only sentient life in the Universe, or how anyone could imagine God as incapable of creating other life forms elsewhere."

Off all the things both physical and organic that have been observed, has there been anything that we have just found one of, that we have not found there to be more than one?

If the answer is that there is no provable thing of which there is just one, why do we believe that life which, is found on the earth, is the one and only example of life that is?

99 posted on 12/17/2001 11:35:18 AM PST by tberry
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To: Scully
I can only assume it's because the Bible doesn't SAY God crated Martians on the 8th day.
100 posted on 12/17/2001 2:07:59 PM PST by Johnny Shear
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