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To: AGAviator
The only obsession is the West's oil supply, or as you so delicately put it "the free flow of goods and services to keep the international economic wheels turning." The only regime which gets US aid gratis is the Israeli one, which is not lost on the hundreds of millions of non-Jews of the region and the world.

This is false as you well know. Many countries get U.S, aid "gratis". Egypt is the next big recipient of U.S. aid in the ME and it is so because of Camp David. Israel puts back into the U.S. economy by being required to purchase U.S. military equipment. On the other hand the U.S. putting $50 billion a year just to keep Hussein in line has nothing to do with Israel.

I'm sure that's why the Ottomans invited the persecuted Jews who sruvived the Inquisition from Spain. Thanks for explaining that bringing Jews back to Palestine falls under "jihad."

Maybe you forgot that Spain was conquered by the Jihad in the space of 100 years. Oh, I'm sorry you likely overlooked that small fact. You also likely overlooked the fact that the Almohads slaughtered Jews (and Christians) by their Jihad from the Maghreb to Spain in the 12th century.

You have categorically stated an "Open Door Policy" was the vehicle of American expansionism. This is untrue. In fact "Open Door Policy" is generally acknowledged to (A)Pertain to free immigration, and/or (B) Pertain to free trade with China only. I have not seen any reference at all to "Open Door" pertaining to the Philippines and Cuba. And if you think it through, because Philippines and Cuba became American protectorates, there was no need for an "Open Door" because the US owned them lock, stock, and barrel and could and did exclude all other countries.

Again, only because you have messed this portion of history up, the Open Door happened because the decision was made to PURCHASE the Philippines for $20 million (and extend its interests over Puerto Rico and Guam as a result of the Spanish-American War) as a deliberate decision to expand its interests in the Pacific. These acts coupled with the China sphere of influence, and particularly the latter, became part of the Open Door Policy debated through the Open Door Notes.

According to that pesky Declaration of Independence, governments are instituted among men "deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." "The governed" clearly does not include foreign powers wishing to help themselves to a region's resources. And "everybody does it" is not an excuse.

The Declaration and Constitution give officials the elected authority to act in the interests of the American people. The American people allowed U.S. expansionism as well as a majority of the American people support Israel.

Again, what this is leading up to is you're hinting that it's perfectly OK for industrialized countries to help themselves to the resources and the lands occupied by Islamics. This in turn presupposes a need for some kind of Islamic bogeyman to justify continuous pre-emptive occupations and attacks in these strategic and resource-rich areas. Which means it's not even about Islam, ultimately, it's about neo-colonialism of the Western world

If the U.S. believed in outright hegemony and neo-colonialism it would still be occupying Saudi Arabia or Kuwait or some other Arabian country and extracting the oil on its own terms.

241 posted on 12/12/2001 4:43:16 AM PST by Lent
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To: Lent
Many countries get U.S, aid "gratis". Egypt is the next big recipient of U.S. aid in the ME and it is so because of Camp David.

By gratis I mean a there is no quid pro quo. There is no quid pro quo with Israel. Their history clearly shows they don’t have to do anything to get their check. Everyone else has to give something to get something, and if they have nothing to give, they’re SOL.

Egypt gets aid because of Camp David and the Suez Canal. Afghanistan, OTOH, had nothing to give and therefore received almost nothing even though it was an ally against the Soviets and lost two million people. Had the US spent a tiny fraction of the money in Afghanistan that it spends on the Israeli government, and is spending now to fight the war and bribe local commanders, there would be no Al-Qaida, no drugs, and no terrorism there.

The country never got the aid when it needed it because there was only one other country whose well-being we were concerned with. Whether that will now change, is too early to tell.

Israel puts back into the U.S. economy by being required to purchase U.S. military equipment.

Selling military equipment to yourself is economically useless. Military equipment destroys things and doesn’t generate wealth. Its production is a taxpayer-subsidized expenditure, which only gives economic benefits if you use it for conquest or if you pass the loss onto another country.

On the other hand the U.S. putting $50 billion a year just to keep Hussein in line has nothing to do with Israel

America originally supported Hussein as part of its endless backing of strong men who stifle progress, popular movements, and are amenable to American policies, especially commercial exploitation at favorable prices. Strong men are fine with America as long as they keep their populations from becoming pro-Palestinian or anti-Israel. Only when they cross that line do they acquire the status of bad guys.

You also likely overlooked the fact that the Almohads slaughtered Jews (and Christians) by their Jihad from the Maghreb to Spain in the 12th century

Which has absolutely nothing with Ottomans inviting Jews back, completely contrary to your statement they were "perfecting their jihad." During the 1800’s and 1900’s, the Ottomans were also allied with a Christian country, Germany. Somehow they found a way not to "perfect their jihad" against their Christian allies, either. The world is more subtle than jihad and anti-jihad.I know, too complex for your simple understanding.

Again, only because you have messed this portion of history up, the Open Door happened because the decision was made to PURCHASE the Philippines for $20 million

You’re blowing smoke. There is no connection between the Philippines which became a US possession acquired through war, and China where the US wanted all countries to be able to freely trade on equal terms. On the former, we took them over, while on the latter, we wanted to keep anyone from taking it over. Furthermore Andrew Carnegie offered to reimburse the US government for the $20 million because he was a real American who believed in independence for all people, and not a neo-colonialist.

The Declaration and Constitution give officials the elected authority to act in the interests of the American people. The American people allowed U.S. expansionism as well as a majority of the American people support Israel.

The fundamental principle underlying both the Declaration and the Constitution is that all people, everywhere, have God-given rights which are not to be interfered with. This principle trumps legalistic maneuvering to gain economic benefits. Freedom and not wealth is the core value on which America is founded.

If the U.S. believed in outright hegemony and neo-colonialism it would still be occupying Saudi Arabia or Kuwait or some other Arabian country and extracting the oil on its own terms.

Presently it’s cheaper to buy someone, and the US isn’t willing to accept the losses from attempting to use force. However the “Carter Doctine” stated the US would use nuclear weapons to defend “its” oil supply, and shows the military option has always been a consideration.

245 posted on 12/12/2001 10:57:19 AM PST by AGAviator
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