Posted on 12/09/2001 6:22:59 AM PST by philo
Which, like all the other 'evidence' must be deep sixed to keep the so-called 'hidden cells' from receiving their orders. Talk about lame. Not one of the Arabs being held incommunicado for all this time has been linked to AlQaeda ... but they are still being held.
'ObL's Al Qaeda was already involved in previous attacks against American interests abroad.'
American 'interests' in Muslim countries ... = money.
' And as far as I was concerned, Afghanistan was as good a place to start as any.'
Meaning you weren't sure, but bombs away anyway.
'There was no way for the investigators to know the correct names of every suicide high jacker involved in the attacks'
But of course we DID 'know' their ethnicity, didn't we? We DID 'know' their religion, didn't we? Or was it that you just made another 'leap' because someone said so.
a few of them actually used fake names.
Probably with faked nationalities too, since no devout Muslim would drink and whore around the night before he was planning to meet Allah.
' Osama always admitted to the acts.'
Yes, he did admit the other attacks you mentioned .. all of which took place as a result of what they consider our unwanted incursion into their lands. The WTO was a direct attack against the LAND of the US and BinLaden catagorically denied being involved in that.
'I didn't need proof'
You never do. But I did. Guess I must be from Missouri. Lie to me once and I'll never trust you again. They lie. So I won't take that leap with you.
'The NA hate the Arabs anyway so it worked out just right.'
They're all terrorists aren't they? After all, they don't believe in the same things you do and they wear these wierd things on their heads and they speak a different language and worship a 'different' God. So its a good thing when our CIA goes in and stirs up tribal differences in their countries so they will kill each other. That way we can keep our dainty little pinky fingers clean. That right?
'I contend to you that giving up the freedom (liberty) to get on a plane without being searched is NOT my idea of ESSENTIAL LIBERTY.'
Hide and watch. Your temporary freedom to get on a plane without being searched is not my concern ... and it shouldn't be yours either. But then you can just keep on leaping and shouting in joy over these red herrings they keep throwing in front of you, until ALL of your Constitutional (Bill of Rights) liberties are relegated to the dust bin of history. THOSE are your 'essential' liberties and they are being eroded deliberately by those same people who are telling you that you don't need any proof of anything ... just trust us (to vote ourselves some new pay raises while Americans are losing their jobs by the thousands).
'Can you please now do me the favor of telling me your alternative solution to the problem President Bush is currently faced with'
Well, tell me why its so imperative that we keep sticking our noses into these countries/cultures/religions/values for the purpose of assisting transnational companies to profit from the mineral wealth that lurks beneath the crust of those parts of the earth they occupy? The attacks you so fear will probably be coming to theatres near you now because the Arab people are no longer willing to be pawns in the scrabble for all those valuable minerals. For all too long they've watched their American sponsored puppet leaders wallow in obscene wealth while they, themselves, have beem systematically starved? Isn't that why American troops are stationed in Saudi Arabia? To protect the 'kingdom' against the masses of Saudi citizens who, if left to their own devices, might actually bring democracy and representative government to their country, wherein they might also benefit from the fruits of their land? Your military is being used to prevent any such eventuality. Is this a proper use of your military?
As an aside, please tell me, who owns the minerals beneath YOUR land? Certainly YOU no longer do. Congress did that to you MANY MANY years ago. ..... nah. They'd never do that to you, would they? So, tell me, how much water do you extract from that well in your back yard these days? Oh, you 'buy' your water from the city? Thought so.
So you just go right on trusting. And I'll go on questioning.
You replied 1) Which, like all the other 'evidence' must be deep sixed to keep the so-called 'hidden cells' from receiving their orders. Talk about lame.
I'm with you on this one. I wish they would show this tape (I think they will), and the one from before that had Tony Blair all hyped up (from what I've heard, that one used more vague language than this latest one). But lets face it, you would still not be convinced. You would be accusing the U.S. of doctoring the tape, or not interpreting Osama's words correctly. I've just gone over all your posts from this thread, and others, and not only have you not stated any negative response to the terrorist attacks against us, but have indeed made excuses for them. That, amongst other thing, tells me you have no moral compass.
2) Not one of the Arabs being held incommunicado for all this time has been linked to Al Qaeda ... but they are still being held.
All of the Arabs being held have broken U.S. law in one way or another. The United States Constitution grants congress the specific Power To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization in Article 1, section 8. The Arabs being detained have broken one or more of those rules, or other more blatant criminal offenses, and are therefore detained legally. But being on U.S. soil entitles these people to certain rights under our Constitution, even though they are not citizens of our country, under the 14th amendment to our constitution that states (in part):
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
So, in my opinion, these people being held should either be deported to their country or origin, or be allowed their 6th amendment protection that states (in part) the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial , which would be their "due process of law".
BUT, to say "the Arabs being held incommunicado" ...
Definition of incommunicado :
incommunicado : without means of communication ; also in solitary confinement
... is an OUTRIGHT LIE. They ALL have attorneys whom are absolutely free to talk with the families, TV stations, news papers, or whatever. Matter of fact, I, myself, have witnessed two such attorneys defending their clients on the "Bill O'Reily"(sp?) show. Those two were charged with smuggling some 60,000 dollars CASH, hidden in and under honey that was being shipped to establishment in Yemen (I think) that were known fronts for the Al Qaeda network. Both lawyers admitted that the situations their clients were caught in the process of, "looked bad". That being said, I still think they should be either tried, or deported. But maybe they don't want a speedy trial being the state of mind that most Americans (their potential jury) are in right now (after 9-11).
What's sad is, you have to lie to be able to make a point. That shows me two things ... you are a liar, and you can't defend your position with facts.
You replied : American 'interests' in Muslim countries ... = money.
Which one of the attacks I listed = "money"? You just can't make a point without lying can you. Yes, we have a lot of financial interests in Muslim countries, but none of those monetary interests were attacked. Let's go through them again shall we? ...
1) Killing of U.S. soldiers in Somalia (1993) = Money??? We were trying to feed those people. Your Muslim buddies were attacking all the humanitarians that were trying to feed the starving people in that country. We tried to help them, so your Muslim buddies started attacking us (the U.S.A.) Your welcome
2) Bombing under World Trade Center {6 killed} (1993) American 'interests' in Muslim countries ... = money The WTC isn't ... oops, wasn't even in a Muslim country, you boob.
3) Bombing of U.S. barracks in Saudi Arabia {22 soldiers killed} (1996) Ok, on this one you are HALF right. BUT we were invited their by the ruling family of Saudi Arabia. If the millions of Muslims in that country don't rise up and rebel against their Muslim rulers, is that our (U.S.A's) fault? We already had our revolution against our tyrannical rulers, now (225 years later) it's your turn. And believe me, we would not defend the Royal family from a revolution that would possibly lead to a democracy. We deal well with democracies. Notice how democracies never war with each other? Why kill Americans when your government invited us there? Kill your government.
4) Bombings of U.S. Embassies in East Africa {224 killed including 12 Americans} (1998) U.S. Embassies in East Africa = money???????
5) Bombing of USS Cole in Yemen {17 U.S. Sailors killed} (2000) The Cole stopped in to refuel, with the ok from the government, nothing to do with money, except that we pay them for the fuel.
You're losing this debate to someone (me) that didn't even finish High school.
You replied : Meaning you weren't sure, but bombs away anyway.
You must be able to read, at least a little, so you must be severely retarded. That's the only reason I can come up with for your extremely poor reading comprehension. Either that, or you're a paid troll for one of the terrorist supporting Muslim organizations (as opposed to the ones that don't support terrorism), and are therefor not interested in truth, facts, or reason, when advancing an argument.
You replied : But of course we DID 'know' their ethnicity, didn't we? We DID 'know' their religion, didn't we? Or was it that you just made another 'leap' because someone said so.
I didn't need my government to tell me anything. I didn't need a leap in faith either. The news articles with quotes from the family members of the suicide terrorists saying "he was a normal, very non religious, guy up until about a year ago when he got caught up in Islam. Then he changed, and soon after that left home for more intense study of the religion. I'm sorry to the Americans for my sons actions."
After a few of those articles, I was convinced the perps were fanatical muslims. Call me crazy.
None of the hundreds (possibly thousands) of civilians who have died in U.S. attacks in Afghanistan had anything to do with the terrorist suicide missions that struck the World Trade Towers and Pentagon. Instead of rooting out and killing the perpetrators of those attacks, this administration has decided to declare war (well, not actually) on a sovereign country and its civilian population. (By the way, how are we "fighting terrorism" by bombing dams, power stations and relief centers?) We've decided to fight terrorism by becoming terrorists ourselves.
You replied : Yes, he did admit the other attacks you mentioned .. all of which took place as a result of what they consider our unwanted incursion into their lands. The WTO (you mean WTC?) was a direct attack against the LAND of the US and BinLaden catagorically (you mean categorically?) denied being involved in that.
Very good, you admit that he was responsible for all the attacks, except the WTC attacks, against the U.S. Those attacks he admits to are plenty enough reason to go after him and the government that gave him a safe haven. I couldn't care less what his excuses are for the terrorist attacks. The fact is, there is NO excuse for terrorism.
But you believe him when he, publicly, denies culpability in the WTC attacks. Well that's your right to be easily deceived. Do you believe him when he says it's the duty of every good Muslim to kill every Jew and/or American they can? Or do you just believe some of the things he says? I believe he is just trying to save his ass by just admitting to the attack away from U.S. soil. Kind of like a wife beater tells the cops, "I only pushed her once". If he were to say, "yeah I hit her", he would be hauled off to jail. ObL is that wife beater.
Let me get this straight, you are defending, or condoning, the attack on that lone journalist that has nothing to do with the bombing of Afghani civilians?
If a hundred people, that knew somebody that was killed in the WTC attack, got together in a mob and went around beating innocent Muslims that happen to be within their reach, you would tell Muslim people that they should understand why that American mob attacked that Muslim because they were angry that muslims attacked the WTC? Well that's what you're doing here, just in reverse. The only difference is the people that attacked the WTC did it completely on purpose, while the bombed homes in Afghanistan were most likely by mistake. So actually the American mob would be more understandable to you?
I say both situations would be (are) absolutely wrong.
This "war on terrorism," which has turned into a war on Afghanistan and its government (we're replacing one group of thugs with another group of cutthroats), will turn out to be colossal blunder. We're looking at a campaign of guerilla warfare and tribal infighting that will last for decades. Nation-building in Afghanistan, something the president said he'd never do, may take longer than Bush and his oil buddies thought. Unocal may never get to build its oil line from Turkmenistan to Karachi.
I said : It wasn't the Afghans we were after. It was the Arabs that inhabited their country to use it as a great big TERRORIST camp. The NA hate the Arabs (being in their country) anyway so it worked out just right.
You, like a good troll, said : They're all terrorists aren't they? After all, they don't believe in the same things you do and they wear these wierd (that's weird) things on their heads and they speak a different language and worship a 'different' God.
NOOOOO, not just any/all "Arabs". the ones that took over in non Arab Afghanistan. Those Arabs were the Al Qaeda terrorist organization. That's why it's good the the NA wanted them out too, because we (U.S.A.) were embarking on a war on terrorism. (you like pulling just partial quotes out in order to misrepresent my position, don't ya? That makes you a troll)
You said : So its a good thing when our CIA goes in and stirs up tribal differences in their countries so they will kill each other. That way we can keep our dainty little pinky fingers clean. That right?
You may have had an excuse for your ignorance before, but I've already told you about the war preexisting between the "tribes". That war, as I said before, had been going on for about 10 years before we got there. No need for the CIA to stir things up. And when we need to get our "little pinky fingers" dirty, don't worry ... we will.
Let me just say (for clarity sake), I was as horrified as anyone else when those planes crashed into the towers and the Pentagon. It may have been even more painful for me as it was a possibility/probability that I had been predicting for SO many years, and it made me angry as hell because no one would listen until it was too late. Sadly, What goes up, must come down. What goes around, comes around. Natural law. Karma. Call it whatever you want. There are penalties for screwing up, whether its done out of stupidity or just following bad advice for what you thought were good reasons. America has screwed up time and time again, insulting entire nations for the sake of its 'special friend'.
There is no way to escape the fact that there is only one religion that I know of (and I've studied them all) that does not have as one of its main tenets the basic philosophy of: 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto to you'. That one phrase, IMHO, is all the 'religion' we ever really needed. But, of course, it won't work as long as there's one belief system that considers itself to be superior to all others in the eyes of G-d and demands to be viewed as such by all others. Theres no need to follow any silly golden rules if you're so superior. That's only for stupid cattle, right? And that's a blueprint for a disaster of epic proportions.
The Israel/Ishmael thing is a blood feud that the entire world has been dragged into willynilly because Muslims refuse to accept the self-proclaimed designation demanded by Jews that G-d chose them over all others to be His 'favorites' and therefore are entitled to anything they want of this earth no matter whom they have to take it from or how they have to get it ... and when they don't get it, they're victims.
Your revised history of the creation of Israel has deleted so much brutality perpetrated against the native people of Palestine that the whole thing is rendered totally invalid by default.
He was attacked by one little kid idly throwing pebbles---This was enough to throw the crowd into a frenzy--but all 100 of them didn't do enough harm to keep him from his appointed rounds. And then--one mullah saves him by escorting him to a waiting police car...What??
I think he ranted at the kid and the kid's father popped him a couple. Any more than that doesn't make any sense...but it sure makes sense that this anti-westerner would blow it up into an entirely fabricated acccount. After all, we aren't going to hear from any of the Afghans if he's lying, are we?
See? Just like Billyboy's fables of his youth.
And you believe this. It's just too perfect, wouldn't you say?
I'm tellin' ya, this guy made a mountain out of some tiny molehill, just for a hook for another anti-American diatribe. And to jerk tears from the "Riding Shotguns" of the world.
Gotta love it. Thanks for the smile and the chuckle.
Yeah, I know. The tribes of Afghanistan had been warring and killing each other every since the Soviets were driven out. But if you talked to average Afghani's on the street in recent days they are saying that they were actually happy when the taleban came to drive out the NA criminals and bring some order. No more rapes or highwaymen waylaying merchants and citizens. No more opium fields, but real crops. But of course you wouldn't know about any of that because unless it comes from CNN you think its all lies. Well even Fox is reporting that most of this stuff is back now that the NA is back in 'control'. And if you think our troops can rein them in, ask the Russians.
There have been hordes of Afghan refugees in Pakistan and everywhere else they could get to since long before this little war cranked up.. And reliable reporters (as opposed to leftwing crackpots) have described that the Afghans who suffer casualties generally blame the Arabs for taking liberties with their country and bringing the fire down upon them.
You and Ridin'Shotgun might do well to have a seat and cool off a little. Take another look at things in the light of day after your fever goes down a bit.
The only real story here is: "Leftwing Eurotrash launches yet one more assualt against the West--slanders peaceful Afghans to make a point.
No tears here. Just tremendous respect for a man who has the testicular fortitude to venture forth into that nightmare to bring 'unsanitized' news to inquiring minds.
Maybe he saw the photo of the 11 year old boy who was blinded and lost both his arms to a bomb. Maybe he saw the photos of dead children half buried in debris. I know I did. Where is your humanity?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.