Is the Glory of God at Stake in God’s Foreknowledge

Desiring God.org ^ | 12/08/01 | John Piper

[RnMomof7]

For discussion

[RnMomof7]

A read and discuss bump...How do you see the foreknowlege of God?

[Uri’el-2012]

RnMomof7

A read and discuss bump...How do you see the foreknowlege of God?

2 posted on 12/8/01 8:04 PM Mountain by RnMomof7

My L-rd knows the end from the beginning. see Isaiah 46:10

Barukh haba b'Shem Adonai
Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord
Y'shua haMashiach

XeniaSt

[RnMomof7]

The denial of this foreknowledge is, I believe John would say, (whether intended or not) an assault on the deity of Christ.

I agree Xenia

[mdittmar]

Is the Glory of God at Stake in God’s Foreknowledge of Human Choices?

I believe God gave us free will to make choices and that he hopes that we turn to him.

"For I know the plans I have for you,says the Lord.They are plans for good and not evil,to give you a future and a hope.In those days when you pray, I will listen. You will find me when you seek me,if you look for me in earnest.

Jeremiah 29:11:13

[Hank Kerchief]

The question of God's forknowledge is a problem for some people, because they believe, if it is true, it makes human volition logically impossible. In fact, knowing what will happen has nothting to do with the will or volition, any more than knowing what happened in the past has anything to do with will or volition.

This aspect of past versus future events is very important in this question, but usually ignored. No one doubts that past events are fixed for all time, but no one doubts that this "fixedness" changes the fact that in human society, events were determined by individual volitional choice.

But the future is just as fixed as the past. It can correctly be said about all future events that for every decision any human is faced with there will be one choice, the one they actually make. We do not know now, what those choices will be, but we know, that whatever choice is made, it is already true it is the one they will make. When they have made it, it will be true to say, that was the choice they were always going to make, even though no one, not even the choosers, knew it.

This will take some thought by those who have never considered the temporal ralationship between choice and possiblity.

Hank

[nicmarlo]

How do these doubters of God's foreknowledge dismiss what is evidenct in the book of Ruth? It is plain within the text that people were acting on their own free wills, some under God's direct guidance, so He could deliver the Jews from the evil plottings going on years after Ruth moved and settled with her mother, Naomi. The entire book shows God's foreknowledge and deliverance.

[sola gracia]

Bump for later read. Thanks.

[Arkinsaw]

When the Bible states that God created us in his image I don't believe it meant facial characteristics, it meant that we were created with the ability to think and choose. I think of it as "limited sovereignty". I believe that God knows the end and knew it from the beginning, that is obvious. But I think that he has chosen for himself to not know the details of our part in the path to that end in all cases. He made us a gift of our free will, in a sense delegated it to us, and we have our choice of paths. But his outcome for humanity as a whole will not be denied or averted by our individual choices for ourselves.

It is our choice to return that sovereignty to him of our own free will and be saved or keep it for ourselves and be lost.

[rwfromkansas]

Definitely, my Freeper friend.

[MHGinTN]

As a being possessing height, I can stand in a room and see across the floor, but the ability to do so doesn't force me to do so unless I choose to do so. I may choose not to do so for some purpose I have in mind. A being living in the floor (flatlanders), possessing no height at all wouldn't have my options, but might wonder why the theoretical beings that would possess height don't always look across the floor, to warn the flatlanders of coming problems!

[good1]

Thanks for an outstanding article. Piper makes many excellent points. His, and Edward's, biblical support is valid and cogent. Surely the Bible teaches God's foreknowledge of human choices.

Further, from a rational point of view, if God does not fully know human choices, how can any of His promises (for salvation, hope, victory over sin and satan, etc.) be real sources of comfort for us? If Boyd and Pinnock are correct, the entire future of a home in heaven is teetering upon the whim of human choice.

Also, this 'openness' view of God promotes man far above God. It makes man sovereign over God. God becomes subservient to man's choices. Boyd, Pinnock, et al would hurl God from His throne and set thereon man and his choice. As Piper has shown this is not what God has revealed about Himself in the Scripture.

[good1]

A further thought: This view, that God does not know future human choices is repugnant on another level, and that is that it denigrates God by those very ones who claim to worship Him.

It would not be so very offensive if these comments were made by, say, a cultist or any member of any of the miriad false religions, but to hear them from those of the evangelical community is abominal.

In other words, if any should know God and His true attributes, they should be evangelicals.

But of course, apostasy is only heinous when one departs from the truth.

[RnMomof7]

As a being possessing height, I can stand in a room and see across the floor, but the ability to do so doesn't force me to do so unless I choose to do so. I may choose not to do so for some purpose I have in mind. A being living in the floor (flatlanders), possessing no height at all wouldn't have my options, but might wonder why the theoretical beings that would possess height don't always look across the floor, to warn the flatlanders of coming problems!

I attend a church that does not believe in the absolute forwknowlege of God..But I observe that life and events do not happen in isolation..one tend to build on another.As we go into the Christmas season,we think about the prophesy on Jesus in the OT...but just think of the series of events God had to "cause " to be,or known in advance to have Jesus born in Bethlehem,to fulfill that prophesy

That is repeated over and over in scripture..and in our lives..What series of events led to your salvation?

There are spiritual mysteries that we will never understand while we live..the tension between free will and Gods sovereignity is one of them. But I do not believe at this point in my life that anything happens without Gods permission or intervention..that is why we call Him Lord :>)

[RnMomof7]

Further, from a rational point of view, if God does not fully know human choices, how can any of His promises (for salvation, hope, victory over sin and satan, etc.) be real sources of comfort for us? If Boyd and Pinnock are correct, the entire future of a home in heaven is teetering upon the whim of human choice.

I love the OT... One of the things that strikes me over and over ,as I read it, is how often God acts so they (the people of Israel and the heathan nations) will know He is God,and sovereign.

[mombonn]

bump to read later

[Matchett-PI]

"I attend a church that does not believe in the absolute forwknowlege of God."

Why would you want to attend one of the dime-a-dozen "man-centered" churches?

[RnMomof7]

God put me where I am,and there I stay till He moves me again..

Remember that the Israelites were to follow the cloud by day and the fire by night..no moves on their own :>)