Judges Lock Up More Teachers

Star-Ledger ^ | December 6, 2001 | SUE EPSTEIN, BEV McCARRON AND KELLY HEYBOER

[hobbes1]

Do your Math. 60k times 2 = 120k. thats over 2 grand a week.
Not counting income from Rental Property, or Salary earned during the Three months off.
A 400k home is affordable (however barely)on a 120k, salary.

[claptrap]

It is wonderful to see these "teachers" being arrested, they should also be fired, they also should have their teaching credentials revoked.Hopefully they could be kept in prison over the holidays and should be housed with the general prison population, and they should be given condoms since that is their ultimate ideal of how to show kindness.

[Don Myers]

"When you say its O.K. to break one law in an action of civil disobedience, but not o.k. to break another law in an action of civil disobedience, I think anyone but an educator would consider that a double standard."

Could you expand on this? I am not sure what you are getting at here.

[Teacher317]

My first thought is that if they don't like the pay (the only reason for this particular strike), they are free to find jobs elsewhere. They also have the right to complain, lobby, and write grants in an effort to get more money to come to their individual schools if they soimply MUST stay. Going on strike, especially if illegal, was unwise. The judge is acting in accordance with the law and his duties. The teachers (and especially the union) are doing a great job of trying to drum up sympathy (and hoping some revenue increases will follow), but they've taken a pretty extreme course of action to do it. Jail time is simply the risk they took, and they are reaping what they've sown.

My favorite line is 'the children are suffering'... yeah, staying at home, watching Judge Judy, and eating popcorn and cereal has been SUCH a hardship for them! LOL. After they return, they'll be hoping for another strike ASAP, as long as their favorite teachers don't leave.

(Personally, I took a 5 digit pay cut to come to the wonderful school I'm in now. For most teachers, thankfully, the career isn't about the money or the time clock... but there are many exceptions.)

[gunshy]

Yet somehow the private schools manage to hire teachers just fine, and pay them less too!

And they provide a higher quality of education to boot.

[Virginia-American]

IMHO, this shows the necessity of term limits for 'public servants'. IMHO, no more than ten years lifetime total working for any govt body at any level should be it. In other words, the gov't should hire people who already have a life to return to, as opposed to the present practise of hiring people who are more concerned about job security and pensions and 'making a difference'.

Not that the gov't should be allowed to run schools in the first place.

[dagny taggert]

Um, no, it's not true that they never work overtime. The clubs, sports, and so on are run by teachers, and not in the 8-3 time frame. No, I'm not pro-union, but just because I do not agree with them does not mean I'm willing to see the truth distorted.

[NewHampshireDuo]

If someone can jail you for not going to work, that is involuntary servitude. I am completely appalled at this judge's actions, and am curious as to how the community benefits from this in terms of chewed up jail space. Fire them, don't jail them

Well now, that would be hard because they are unionized and good or bad they can't just be fired. Maybe we should try looking at the bigger issue of the powerful NEA and Teachers' Union in this country.....

[Orangedog]

But if you are a teacher, can you be replaced by someone who is not certified as a teacher ? May an engineer get a job as a teacher (e.g. teaching math or science ) ?

The whole "teacher certification" thing is a scam. It's another layer of red tape that the unions stuck in to keep a lock on their control of public "education." Teacher colleges are another big problem. All they do is teach how to teach, and based on the end product (students) they don't even do that very well.

I wonder what it would be like if this "certification" crap was eliminated and people like engineers, chemists, and others who are actually experts in their field (and non-unionized) were allowed into the field. If there were actually this caliber of people teaching, the public schools would be better off. Of course the administrators would have to go. My old high school had four, yes FOUR vice principals! That's a little top heavy.

[Rodney King]

Um, no, it's not true that they never work overtime. The clubs, sports, and so on are run by teachers, and not in the 8-3 time frame. No, I'm not pro-union, but just because I do not agree with them does not mean I'm willing to see the truth distorted

Well, where I live those things are completely voluntary.

[pchuck]

One teacher, Carol Ann Drum, retired on the spot rather than have Kreizman send her to jail. Drum's lawyer asked the school board's attorney to waive the usual 60 days' notice and let her retire immediately. The attorney agreed and Drum, after 33 years as a teacher, walked out of the courtroom silently.

So much for caring about "the children". So this "teacher" just decides to bag her career. I wonder if she is currently teaching a class of children. So what are they going to do for the rest of the school year? Susbstitute teacher time, we know that is a quality education.

[ZULU]

In some states, the teachers unions have challenged the use of teachers after hours on a non-paid basis. They really are a bunch of mercenary harlots (the NJEA and NEA that is).

[Just another Joe]

Some teachers, including veteran history teacher Barbara Guenther, made emotional statements before the judge, explaining why they were willing to break the law.

This is news to me. I didn't know that you could be JAILED for not reporting to your job.
Are these teachers indentured servants, or what?
I would expect to see lots of lawsuits come out of this.

[joathome]

Ever heard of inheritance? Or don't you believe in that? When I was growing up I also knew two teachers who lived in one of the nicest houses in town. They were extremely frugal and lived off of his salary for several years, socking hers away.

So, what's your beef? You think the teachers are selling drugs on the side?

[Eska]

You sound like someone who hasn't been in a public or private school for sometime.

Private schools are not forced to meet govt standards like public schools. Public schools are forced to take everyone, Private schools pick and choose. Private schools do not have to deal with the amount of social/behavioral problems the public schools are forced to accept. Teachers in private schools are usually not state certified, ect. The list could go on forever.

You see 25% (the problem students) create the biggest part of the public school controversy. Private schools never accept such students. They are not even able to deal with such problems even if they wanted to; and they don't.

I remember one case of an SED child (mother was a drug addict, child was diagnosed FAS); grandmother was raising child. Child was violent/dangerous, required his own aide, Hurt several kids. Grandmother blamed everything on the school, put the child in christian school. Didn't last 1 week, private school sent child back to public school. Private schools get the creme of the crop. I have heard of quite a few similiar cases involving private schools. We can't gas our social misfits like the germans did in WWII.

I'm in a spec ed masters program with another lady that taught in public schools for over 15 years. She quit and now teaches in a christian school. She tells me even though she makes 1/2 what she did in public school, she sees 1/10 the problems in the private school. All relates to the caliber of students. Of course you and I both know the christian school parents are much more involved and concerned about their childs education and upbringing than what you would see in the public schools. Also, this lady is 100% native and tells me that she would never again teach in a village school; that's how bad it is in some schools.

There's alot more to the picture than what we all see on FR. You should become involved and see for yourself.

From what I hear, the private schools are having a serious teacher shortage also.

[Rodney King]

You sound like someone who hasn't been in a public or private school for sometime.

I graduated in 1991, not that long I don't think.

Private schools are not forced to meet govt standards like public schools.

Good. Obviously the standards are useless.

Public schools are forced to take everyone, Private schools pick and choose. Private schools do not have to deal with the amount of social/behavioral problems the public schools are forced to accept.

That may be true, but the manahtten institute in New York is running a scholarship program that I am familiar with and they take a lot of kids who are not cream of the crop. Besides, just because some kids are bad apples does not mean that the other 75% should have to suffer. Let the public schools be for warehousing the bad apples, let the other kids learn.

Teachers in private schools are usually not state certified, ect.

So what. I could teache calculus and chemistry better then any loser who goes to a crappy teachers college. The state certifcation is part of the problem. If the certification was so importatant, then why aren't the private schools suffering from a low-caliber of teachers?

The list could go on forever.

I'm sure it could - right out of the union handbook.

[Alberta's Child]

You misunderstand. The property tax RATE doesn't have to change. Let's say the rate is X mils. That is a constant. What isn't a constant is the VALUATION. That is adjusted regularly -- in some places annually.

I understand the property tax issue very clearly. Your profile page doesn't indicate where you live, but my guess is that you don't understand the way New Jersey works. Municipalities are constantly under financial pressure to re-assess the values of their property to increase their tax revenue, but in many cases they are under political pressure to avoid it. The city of Newark, for example, is still assessing property taxes based on their assessed values in the 1950s because there is an implicit understanding that if the property taxes are raised then the few remaining viable neighborhoods in the city (primarily the ethnic areas such as Ironbound Newark and Forest Hill) would be faced with a massive exodus of homeowners out of the city.

While this usually wouldn't matter because the residents would be paying vary high mill rates (as opposed to low mill rates on higher property values) to generate the revenue the city needs, the entire system is grossly unfair to people who live outside the city of Newark. The State of New Jersey, for example, is a huge source of Newark's revenue, as is Essex County. Residents of Essex County municipalities where assesements are done on a regular basis are unfairly penalized because they pay much higher county taxes than their counterparts in Newark. This, in fact, is the primary reason why the town of Millburn just voted to secede from Essex County and attempt to become part of Morris County.

[Eska]

I have been voting republican all my life & cherish my ar-15's. Just have come to see the bigger more complete picture, since becomming a teacher. Not as narrow as most people on FR see it; course I had the same attitude until I entered the school.

Actually, we need more conservative teachers. Ever think about getting certified and becoming a teacher. Its actually the most satisfying career you could imagine. Not even a job, and I'm teaching physics & electronics to high school kids.

[Rodney King]

I agree with you that A) we need more conservative teachers, and B) it is a satisfying job.

I've coached a baseball team and love it. Here's the problem: I work well with kids, I could teach advanced mathematics and US history. I could teach low level chemistry and physics. I could also teach econ or business stuff at any school with such classes. I also could be a baseball coach.

I have basically been outside of my finance career for two years, and I work at a construction firm as the CFO. I will probably get back into finance in a year or two. I would rather have been a teacher than do what I am doing now. However, they wouldn't take me. I went to an Ivy League college, and have very high GMAT and other scores. Instead they wanted me to go to one of their useless schools. So instead of me teaching math, they have some idiot who graduated from community college in five years and can't expalin why "A" in the equation 2A=4 is "2" without help from the textbook.

This is the problem with the schools, and it is the fault of the NEA.