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To: proud2bRC
at least not with charity, given the type of attack

Prophetic, I shoulda shut up after that post... oh well

210 posted on 12/06/2001 1:57:30 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: proud2bRC
The flames, hatred, and intolerance any discussion about religion brings on these forums is always funny to me, but this one seems particularly silly. If we stopped insulting each other long enough, rational discussion of these ideas should be fairly easy.

Before discussing the relative merits of goverment religious involvements, however, we had best define any ambigous terms and correct any mis-associations drawn by people attempting to insult others.
Myticism - A belef in a spiritual aspect to the Universe. Implied is that humans can become aware of and be affected by (for good or ill) this spiritual aspect of existence.
Materialism - The belief that there is no spiritual aspect of the universe, or that if there is, men cannot perceive it or be affected by it.
Theism - A beleif in a divine (or God). This is a personal beleif and does not imply (but does not exclude) a religion.
Atheism - A belief that there is no divine force (or God).
Agnostic - A person who is undecided about the existence of a God and is not willing to take your word for it.
Religion - A human organization composed of indiviuals with like beliefs about the nature of God and the way in which God desires humans to act. Most modern religions would agree that the purpose of a religion is, "To serve God, and provide services for the members of the religion." These "services" include fellowship, quidance, support, help learning more about how to serve God, etc. While this definition is not all-ecompassing, it is broad enough to serve this discussion.
Statism - A beleif in the supremicy of the state over the individual. The individual's purpose is to serve the state.
Individualism - The belief in the supremacy of the individual over the state. The state exists by and for the individuals that compose it.
Ideology - A set of priciples or beliefs. Usually (but not always) political. Thus adherence to the priciples of Communism, Fasism, or Democracy would all be ideologies. But so would Socialism, Enviromentalism, or Libertarianism.
Fanaticism - The beleif that the pursuit of one's agenda supercedes all other considerations. This would include the lives or welfare of anyone else. Thus a fanatic will happily kill, enslave, or anything else to advance his cause. Mullah Omar is a religious fanatic; killing people who violate the "laws of islam" (as he sees them). The people who spike trees to kill lumberjacks are ideological fanatics.

With that out of the way we can discuss the Points raised by the post. First; that atheism equates to statism.
As we can see from our definitions, there is no direct correlation between atheism/theism and statism/idividualism. Indeed, for over a thousand years Theism was used to justify extreme statism. This came to be know as the "Divine Right of Kings". At it's height, disobediance to the goverment was equated with heresy and critisism of the government was blasphemy. "As God has appointed your sovereign over you, disobedience to the sovereign is disobedience to God." Further, there are plenty of examples of people who combine these beleifs in different ways:
Thomas Jefferson was a Theist-Individualist
Ayn Rand was an Atheist-Individualist
Thomas Hobbs (author of "The Leviathon") was a Theist-Statist
Karl Marx was and Atheist-Statist
As we can see, the contention that atheism equates to statism founders on the rocks of both a thousand years of history and many of the brightest social-thinkers of our time. I must consider this idea "disproved".

I'd planned to make this longer, but I have to go now. I will address other points later if people are still reading this post, but I have to go now : my wife needs me, and duty must.

216 posted on 12/06/2001 4:36:10 PM PST by Capt Phoenix
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