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To: MissAmericanPie; Illbay
You have a good mind Illbay, you know a great majority of these people are still stuck in the dark ages That is exactly right! And thus, the problem has nothing to do with the holy books. The last and every time we in the West argued about teh purity of books, we slaughtered each other. Do not start this again.

On another occasion, I pointed out, MissAmericanPie, a few other things. The Western World committed attrocities that did not follow from the Bible. Jesus has not ordered slaughter of infidels by the crusaders or expulsion of Jews and Roma from Spain, England, and France. The Bible says nothing about the Inquisition that burned at the stake 70,000 "witches" just in one year in just one country (Holland). Nor did Jesus command the Church to have a strong opinion about the shape of the Earth. Would you agree that it would be wrong to attribure these acts to some "intrinsic viciousness" of Christians or allege that Biboe is evil?

I also mentioned that all posters such as you, who wave the Bible on all occasions, ignore an inconvenient to them fact: Turkey is predominantly Muslim, yet with separation of church and state, a strong democracy (much longer than Christian Russia, which has never had a democracy in its long history), the only European country that has never persecuted Jews (in fact, invited to come those who survived the expulsion from Spain by Isabella the Catholic in 1492), and a loyal friend of the United States. These people read the same Koran.

Incidentally, unlike many of Arab decent, Turkish Americans had no hesitation where their loyalty lied when we were attacked. Just today I discovered a letter written by President Bush and posted it here.

81 posted on 11/29/2001 1:58:12 PM PST by TopQuark
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To: TopQuark
Would you agree that it would be wrong to attribure these acts to some "intrinsic viciousness" of Christians...

To be honest, many religions are prone to go astray from their founding principles, at least in those that I know of from inquiry into the subject.

And there seem to be regular attempts at "reformation" as well, common to many religions, Christianity, Judaism and Islam being good examples of such.

And you have to concede that if certain trends become "normative", then that ipso facto defines the religion as a whole.

For example: Some of the things you speak of did "define" the official pronouncements of the powers-that-were in, say, the Roman Catholic Church at the time of Galileo, or the Inquisition. Cardinal Ximenez, for example, was commissioned specifically BY THE POPE HIMSELF, to prosecute the Inquisition, and the "trial" of Galileo took place in the Vatican.

OTOH, the "jihadists" are a fringe group, an outgrowth of (but not necessarily in total concert with) the "Wahhabi" movement in the Suni Muslim faith. Outside of a handful of clerics, considered renegade by the greater body of Islamic clerics, there is no real "authority" for their doing what they have done.

Thus to condemn ALL OF ISLAM for the actions of a comparative few outlaws is simply untenable. It is as if you were to look at the incidents you mention, and decide that "all Christians" want to kill Jews and stifle scientific inquiry.

165 posted on 11/29/2001 6:31:08 PM PST by Illbay
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To: TopQuark
"Turkey is predominantly Muslim, yet with separation of church and state, a strong democracy (much longer than Christian Russia, which has never had a democracy in its long history), the only European country that has never persecuted Jews."

Ah, this would not be the SAME Turkey that slaughtered some 1.5 million Armenian Christians and made refugees out of another million more.

History is replete with proof that Islam is a VIOLENT, INTOLERANT religion that wins by the sword and rules with an iron fist. Say what you want about Catholic Spain or France....but the United States has never slaughtered other religions as ruthlessly as has the Muslims. Go ahead and name every isolated account of missionary hucksters to the Hawaiian Islands, name every native American Indian battle ever fought, and I can show you a point in history where Islam has been crueler a hundred times over.

The fact of the matter is this: the overriding reason why the United States has freedom of religion and speech today is because it was founded by persons with a uniquely Christian outlook. Had it been Muslims who founded the colonies I daresay we would NOT be having one--tenth the freedoms we enjoy today. One only need look at ANY Muslim nation today to see this.

203 posted on 11/29/2001 7:25:07 PM PST by fogarty
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