Posted on 11/29/2001 10:29:12 AM PST by A.J.Armitage
Jim Robinson posted Is Free Republic a Fraud? Is it time for Free Republic to go away? this was my reply, which wasn't really "on topic", given what he said in his article, but I think the problem I discuss is worth talking about. Maybe it's just growing pains with all the new people coming in, but even then, I think we ought to talk about it.
In an important sense, Free Republic already has gone away. Too many people here, especially the newbies but also some of the ones from way back, use Free Republic for shouting their love and support of what every violation of freedom anyone can think up. Secret military tribunals, not just for bin Laden but also for people in the United States? You're a traitor if you disagree. The Patriot Act? You're paranoid if you don't think it's just fine. If Bill Clinton had proposed this stuff, we'd have people on here talking about armed revolution. The fact that we're at war doesn't mean we should hand ourselves over, blindfold, to those with an interest in betraying us. The federal government is still what it was before September 11, and (I know this will be more unwelcome, but it's still the truth) it's still what it was when Clinton was in office. Human nature is what it is and politicians, even republican ones, are politicians. Any question of any real improvement having been made by changing the president has been settled by the ignoble exploitation of the attack to get more power for themselves.
It isn't so much that so many here are outright enemies of freedom, it's the unreasoning quality of it. Anything from certain sites, or by certain people (including, bizarrely, Ron Paul) is immediately set upon by people who seem incapable of using anything but ad hominem arguments. These people seem to see no distinction between believing in freedom and being a communist or a liberal or a member of the taliban or whatever pops into their heads. Not only is this bad in itself, it poisons the whole forum. The more of it goes on, the less rational discussion goes on. This sort of thing happened before, but it's choking off good discussion. Another thing polluting the forum is that the newbies are often carrying in bad habits from other forums or chat rooms. For example, I've seen people write "R" for "are". Some of them just aren't that good at writing English. Too many people use all-caps instead of arguments.
Sure, this stuff happened before, but it's a lot worse now.
I don't think it's so much the attack, although that made it worse (the nuke 'em all crowd and suchlike), as it is the fact that people let their guards down when Bush got elected. How many of the people exulting over every new government power would have the attitude with Clinton in office? Few or none, I would venture. Why did we hate Clinton, anyway? Because he was the kind of person to exploit tragedies to expand his power? So, it turns out, is Bush. He had a fascist Attorney General? Well, congratulations, now we have a mere authoritarian. Does anyone doubt that Ashcroft would've treated Elian the same way Reno did? But I suppose that would be fine, so long as the kid's taken by our jack-booted thugs. Did we go through the whole election thing just to get the privilege of having the same policies Clinton or Gore would've enacted pushed through by someone with an R after his name? The bill's the same, but the person signing it hasn't slept with the interns, so we're happy? Was it all about the sex after all?
Do we have anything that we really stand for, or are we here to be cheerleaders for Bush?
Freepers have largely given up the fight for freedom, or were never involved in fighting for freedom in the first place and just joined recently so they could cheer each new chain. I'm afraid we won't get the old Free Republic back until there's a democrat in office. But why don't we like the democrats? Is it really nothing more than the reason people in Chicago don't like the Packers? That kind of political activism is more than a little hollow. There has to be some set of principles that we hold even our own to, or there really is no reason for us to exist. If we're that destitute of principles, not even principles but just plain thoughts of our own, we really don't have a reason to exist. Not just Free Republic, but the whole Right. If we give up on the idea of freedom this easily, we might as well hand over the country to the Left. Why not? They're winning anyway, and Bush is helping them do it. Look at all the new democrats coming in over the border. Unless things change pretty radically, there won't be anything worthwhile left in 20 years. Maybe we should just give up, then. If there was somewhere else, we might go there when things break down too much here, but there isn't. Why not, then? As it stands now, they won, not just America, but humanity. Just have a good time, don't care, munch your grass like a good little sheep, and hope things get better a few hundred years from now.
Maybe things will look better in the morning.
While I'm at it, I'll reply to some of the replies in the original thread.
To WIMom:
If FR is so bad, why do you stay? (I'm not flaming, but really want to know)
I suppose you could say it's the bits of the old Free Republic. But, I'm not sure everyone, even the old timers, would recognize what I have in mind by that. There's always been a lot of crap. I ignored it; you have to take is as a given on any internet forum. But now there's so much more of it.
At it's worst, Free Republic is no worse than the surrounding political culture. Maybe any sanctuary of rational discussion is bound to get inundated eventually, but that's a grim future to imagine for my beloved Free Republic: a cleaned up version of the Usenet. No porn, no spam, people get kicked out, but no higher level of intellectual discussion. Maybe it can be turned around (if I didn't think so, I'd probably leave). Maybe it'll turn around on it's own after the air clears.
I'll tell you my ambition for Free Republic in the far future. If a scholar hundreds of years from now had only Free Republic, he could construct a fairly good history of our civilization, after sorting all the chaos typical of the internet out. Even if he had other sources, Free Republic would still be very worthwhile, the same way collections of pamphlets from earlier times are. But there's more: there are threads I've participated in, and some I've just read, that are worthwhile not for their historical content but for their philosophical content, if I can put it so grandly. The discussions are of course almost all about political philosophy. These are threads worth reading for your own edification.
I'm afraid it all might get buried under typical internet crap, to the point that people in the future ignore the whole thing, which would be a great loss.
To WileyCoyote22:
I think the tribunals ae needed. They sure arn't going to put you or I up there. So whats the beef with that rant ?
It's not just that. It's the tribunals and the Patriot Act and the fact that the public, including far too many here, call for more.
You also fail to even know what War times is and that W has done nothing more than what FDR did.
That's not a high standard.
To Dan from Michigan:
Never say die.
Yeah, I guess so. I just don't see how I can do any good if the whole forum is swamped with these people.
To Howlin:
Get over yourself, will you? I've been here longer than you have and I have seen it come and go; just because we all don't agree with you doesn't mean WE are wrong.
If I'm wrong, tell me why. If we never get past who's saying it to what's being said, no one will ever be persuaded, and all we'll ever have is personal attacks.
To Lucius Cornelius Sulla:
I hate to say it, but thanks for making my point for me.
Things which once would have been crucial, and needed debating must be put aside until our lives have been made secure.
You're wrong. It's precisely now that defending freedom is most important, because now is the time it's most under attack. That many, such as you, would like to give the politicians a blank check makes it even more important.
If you really think that there is no difference between the Clinton/Gore/Reno administration and the Bush/Cheney/Ashcroft administration you have allowed disagreement over policy to drive you into the arms of the bin Laden supporters.
Yeah, I've converted to Islam because I don't like Bush's policy. Or maybe bin Laden was really all worked up by the fact that our Constitution is being ignored.
In a war there is a front line, and the opposition front line. I am on the side of President Bush and the American people. Up to now, I had thought that you were there also.
This kind of attitude is part of the problem I'm talking about.
Your bus analogy is faulty. It implies that Bush is the only one doing anything and we are all just along for the ride. If you want to be that passive, fine. You can have my seat.
Are you suggesting that we stop holding elections as long as the war is on? After all, making the President try to get re-elected will distract him, won't it?
We all care about our families too. Please put down the fiddle.
I see.... so principles shouldn't really be principles at all. They should just be some kind of loose guidelines, to be abandoned for whatever pragmatic "competing values" come down the pike.
No wonder the country's abandoning the notions of rights and constitutional restraint.
Law and legal technicalities are always a last resort. The only thing which keeps any society from crumbling is humanity's innate faith in the (by and large) good (or at least benign) intentions of their fellows. Bush has already proven (to me, anyways) that his intentions are not benign, and are fast approaching the preclusion of good.
It was not for nothing that the Founders so soberly considered, and so carefully, assiduously and deliberately included among our specifically enumerated rights that of keeping and bearing arms.
No...we have nothing to fear...so long as we remain cognizant of the bounds of human ambition, and the frailty of the spirit which constrains it.
A lot of good people aren't here anymore.
What I see happening in the country is a familiar senerio actually. During times of crisis, governments whip up popular opinion to support measures that they would never have supported otherwise. Given the right climate, they can get the people to demand that the shackles be placed upon their bodies. This action/reaction combiniation has always fascinated me in reading about historical precidents. It has truely frightened me to be watching it unfold in real time.
That's what I'm afraid of most.
THe problem of disruptors and others who pollute threads and forums like this is similar to what happened when the internet was opened up to anyone who could click a button to get dialed up. Newsgroups used to be fairly readable and useful in many ways. The signal to noise ratio was much better than it is now. What we see here on this site is pretty much the same thing. As more people come on board, discussions slide in quality as there is no cost other than time (which some folx have too much of), to those trying to muck things up. I don't know that anything can be done about it other than to say that in similar circumstances on mailing lists and such, it seems to be cyclical.
I'm one of those people with too much time. :-)
Someone on the original thread suggested premium forums you'd have to pay to get into. That would probably drive me away from Free Republic altogether, since I don't have money, and all the good discussion would go to the pay forums, leaving me in the Usenetified free forum.
If you wait long enough it will probably get better.
I hope so.
Not all. But then, I wouldn't even consider writing a vanity on the topic "What's Wrong With F.R. Is That Too Many People Don't Think The Way I Do."
FWIW, to me the only REAL things wrong with F.R. are: 1) Too many people with too little to say who take a great number of words in which to say it, and 2) Unlike a couple of years back when most people posting seemed to have a real grasp of what FR is about, a great number apparently now think it is a "bulletin board" where any and everything that might be of the slightest interest to you and your circle of five friends must be deserving not only of its own thread but of being flagged as "breaking news".
Look punk, if you think we are Nazi's go join your Taliban buddies. I will address myself only to Americans (and allies) on the subject of national survival. Let me try it another way. Under the traditions of our country and civilization, and the intent of the founders, every one of us is a member of the militia (or in it's civil form, the Posse Comitatus).
As Madison put it in his draft of the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution, the militia consists of 'the entire body of the citizenry'. We are either in the organized militia, which is to say the National Guard and Military Reserve, or the unorganized militia, which is everyone else. During a war, such as we are in now, the militia is subject to military discipline. By attempting to thwart the authority of the Commander in Chief, you are trying to accomplish a mutiny. The punishment for mutiny in wartime is fairly well known, I believe.
It is entertaining to see those who whine about their rights refusing to honor their obligation. It is nauseating that in many instances they call themselves American conservatives.
I don't think they are. Most republican politicians are committed authoritarians. The only reason to stay republican, and I haven't given up this hope yet, is that we might be able to take over through primaries.
If you have driven, flushed the toilet, paid for services in cash, or any number of things other than slept, I'd lay significant odds on the fact that you broke the law today.
Gosh... that was original.
Um, no.
I can't argue with that. But to reiterate my point, you suggested that the author of the vanity was trying to silence opposing viewpoints. I ask again, where does he say that?
Rhetoric aside, we are not at war.
Only Congress can declare war, and it hasn't, herr oberst.
My God. You're openly calling for a secret military tribunal for a member of the Senate.
You know what? I might get in trouble for saying this, not just on Free Republic but in the real world, because I haven't exactly kept my identity a secret, but it's true, and I wouldn't be counted on any other side: if you get your way, it'll be time for an armed revolution.
Did I say anything about censorship?
Freedom is the only thing worth fighting for. It is the only fight that is morally right. If the war on al queida contains elements of a campaign on our Freedom, then it is in fact a war on us also.
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