Posted on 11/22/2001 10:59:38 PM PST by toenail
Pax vobiscum.
The Jews have a long and extensive collection of extrabiblical writing: apocryphal, pseudopedigraphal, Mishnah, commentaries, histories, and whatnot. Please post the earliest known Jewish writing that, at the least, even hinted that the Numbers passage had anything at all to do with pregnancy or abortion.
Simply stating that the text refers to a pregnant woman does not make it so.
The clear exegesis of the passage shows it's simply a run-of-the-mill trial by ordeal of a woman suspected of infidelity, without any witnesses (obviously) to the infidelity.
Please, since I'm just now logged on and finished reading the posts, allow me the privilege to comment on a few of the things that were discussed tonight? And again, I mean NOTHING in an argumentative manner, agreed?
Someone posted the gif of the partial birth abortion. Now, using the conclusion that you've drawn (for yourself) that that is still NOT a living being, how can it be a pornographic gif? What is pornographic about it? Pornography is (I thought) a sex act between 2 (YECH...or more) people. (EVERYONE ELSE, STAY OUT OF THIS.....I want this between pcl & I. Thanks)
Wait, perhaps I read that wrong. Why would those of us who SO abhor the act want to broadcast it? I abhor pornography and I sure as shootin' wouldn't make up some stupid something or 'other just to make a point. Think of something YOU absolutely HATE. Would you, then, make a movie of it? Yeah, we'd perhaps write a book explaining things, we'd do our utmost to try to persuade others to NOT do that, but make a movie of it? Naaaaaa....
You told a poster, regarding the gif that you never talked about this subject on the internet before. So what? I've NEVER talked to anyone on the internet b/4 FR. Email, yeah, but no forums. So, I don't know where that one came from or it's relevancy. But that's ok, too. And no, you're not alone in the world with your opinions! Good grief. Of course not.
The discussion on breathing or not breathing, what type of air, when, etc. has been talked about far eloquently than I could ever hope to. The only 2 things in my life that I can relate to are the fact that both my father and husband had open heart surgery and stopped breathing during their surgeries, and thanks to my Lord, they're both with me yet. For how long, only He knows.
A day or so ago, I wrote to SOMEONE on this thread (???)to be very careful where this abortion is leading. Pcl, you said you have 3 grandchildren. You know how many I have. I can only assume you & I are within the baby boomers age bracket. The very next step that will be taken is getting rid of US. OUR generation is going to be really, really hard on the insurance industry. I, for one, don't want someone pulling the plug on me before they should, just cuz I'm oh......too old....and I PROMISE YOU, I don't want that to happen to you, either. You MUST realize the slippery slope the abortion issue has taken us down.
You said to someone else tonight, that in your opinion, only the Christians should be allowed to be compassionate. Phooey. There's many, many MANY non-Christians I know who are completely compassionate, caring people. I believe where the poster was coming from is where I was coming from a night or two ago, when you & I were goin' round & round, and I brought up the fact that in today's society, only the Christian is found to be the intolerable one. And ya know, I betcha in the quiet of your heart, you know I'm right. You KNOW what the media portrays us as.
Listen, anytime there's a group of PEOPLE making up an organization there's gonna be some bad apples in the group. That's like saying I'll never take my hubby's shirts to the cleaners cuz gosh darn, I've had SO MANY bad experiences with cleaners before. (which I have...this is an example only) Please don't lump all of us into the same category.
I believe this is the last point for the night....you said that the abortion issue is a complex issue. Using the people on your side of the isle's viewpoints, why is it such a complex issue when indeed, it's not a baby? Why do I hear, over & over again, that "Sigh", "She struggled with the decision to abort, but has come through it OK". I will probably never understand why eliminating something from your body that is of no more use than an appendix should be an issue.
I don't know who took the cheap shot at pcl tonight was, but ya know.....ya know.....Yeah, pcl has taken her share of pot shots at us, but let's rise above it, OK?
There is NOTHING in the world I want more for you, pcl, than for you to accept Jesus into your heart. I firmly believe that there is a hell and I do NOT want you to spend eternity there. I want you to be at peace with yourself, way deep down inside peace that only Jesus can bring. NOT a religion, NOT a group of people, NOT a certain church, but Jesus Christ. Heck, we could even remove all the talk about abortion if you'd just maybe, maybe consider this. My prayer for you, my friend, is that someday the Lord will give YOU the blessing that He gave me, in being able to lead my grandbaby to Him. When that child bowed his head and asked Jesus into his heart, and I knew that we'd be together for eternity....wow, I really really want YOU to have that too. I think of YOUR grandbabies, and the absolute humbling thrill it would be for you to lead them into God's kingdom. There are no words.
Please, don't let the discussions stop between us. I feel as if we've become friends, in a goofy sort of way. That IS said with a big, genuine grin on my face, OK? Love ya, BG
Do you understand what I was trying to say here? I previewed my post a number of times ... and now that it's out there for all to see, I don't think I wrote it right.
I (we) abhor abortion because of the killing of the child. I (we) wouldn't get a thrill out of broadcasting a "movie", made-up or not. It's sickening to us to HAVE to show something like this.
I used the porn example. I hate porn, don't want my little guy (or adult kids) to watch it. So why would I then make a movie about it?????
Does THAT work better? Do I need more coffee or sleep? LOL.....
You answered: "Because that is what I believe. I really do not care if I am the only person in the world that believes this. The belief is useful to me in dealing with the complex issue of abortion.."
I may believe that what makes us human is our ability to whistle and since small children usually cannot whistle, they must not be human. But just because I might believe this it doesn't make it true, or reasonable, or anything more than my opinion. In other words, our beliefs need to based in facts, reason, or experience, otherwise we just hold wrong opinions.
You're all over the map when it comes to the biology and ethics of abortion. Simply stating your unreasoned opinions with no facts or logic to support them is not persuasive. If you really want to think through this issue, may I suggest a book titled Politically Correct Death by Francis Beckwith. I think you would enjoy it.
Husband of Artist
Then that means the shoe is a perfect fit for you.
Hon..it's time to sit down and eat your peas. They're getting cold.
As a post abortion counselor...bump!
Discussing Biblical topics based on scripture with you is like casting pearls before swine...in your direction.
And just to reiterate, I'm an atheist and don't care about religious writings, other than for historical interest. Different Jewish communities (or at least, commentators) at various times have condoned abortion in certain instances, like refusing to delay a woman's execution if she was pregnant, even if labor had already started. But the jealousy trial in Numbers has absolutely nothing at all to do with abortion, and there's no need to resort to lying about it.
Keep up the good work, Homeschool Mama. [And as an aside, homeschoolers could do a better job of advertising/advocating homeschool co-ops for parents whose temperament and social needs aren't suited to single-family homeschooling, but that's for another day and another thread.]
I must be overly tired because I don't know if I'm understanding your concern here. lol!
Are you saying the homeschool community doesn't have enough co-op opportunities for single parent families? If so, please know I lead a homeschool support group of 30 families...3 of which are single family...and well involved in almost every aspect.
Perhaps you could begin a thread about this very subject. I think it would be welcomed and would offer some great discussion and suggestions.
;o) HM
Pornography: The dictionary has multiple defintions of pornography. Most of them do relate to the graphical depiction of sexual situations. There is another defintion: Lurid or sensational material. The dictionary defintion of lurid is: Causing shock or horror; gruesome. Thus we have pornography being "senstaional, gruesome material which causes shock or horror." We all know that the Pro-Life images we are talking about are specifically designed to be sensational and gruesome with the goal of causing shock or horror. They are pornographic. (You may use www.dictionary.com to verify these definitions.)
Breathing: I have explained my beliefs and some of their foundations in other posts. They are my beliefs and are not open for debate. I have no problem if you and the entire world disagree those beliefs. They are my beliefs, not yours.
Senior Citizens I am sorry. I do not buy the fact that abortion will lead to geracide. There is no logical progression from one to the other. However, let's assume that somehow it did happen. I said I would die for my beliefs. If geracide happens because of abortion, I guess I will would end up dieing for my beliefs.
Compassion and Christians I did imply that only Christians could be compassionate in response to another posting. I was being sarcastic.The poster was a Christian showing anti-compassion.
Abortion is a complex issue: For you it is not. For me it is. The sky is blue. Night follows day. What is, is.
PCL's conversion: I will not say it will never happen. As long as I am breathing, anything is possible. It does seem unlikely. I stared off as a Catholic. I walked away from that belief system at a very early age. I never looked back. What I walked towards was much more satisfying. My oldest daughter, her husband and my grandsons are all Christians. She chose Christianity for herself around the time she graduated from college. She did so with my full support.
I do sincerly appreciate you for your thoughts and prayers.
Thank you.
Thank you for the link. I will file this site away for future reference in these types of discussions.
PS - Let me know when your "book" is done. I'd like to read it.....
Big deal.
Your pathological problem is in wanting others to die for your beliefs, whether they're the unborn young or the undead old.
I must have missed something. I don't see your point. How are we all criminals of the worse kind if we belive that ALL life is sacred?
Life is tough sometimes, ya know?
Like for George and Barbara Bush, who had to watch their four year old daughter Robin die slowly.
Would it have been better if George and Barbara Bush had been able to abort Robin before birth, to spare them the pain?
As for anencephalic babies, Senator Rick Santorum and his wife had an anencephalic child. They refused doctors' pressure to abort him, and cradled him lovingly until he died.
Sad as that was, they said they would not have given up that experience for the world.
What is?
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