Posted on 11/21/2001 11:54:19 AM PST by shuckmaster
Edited on 05/11/2004 5:33:22 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
I was afraid you'd say that. Tell me, is a constitution that allows abortion on demand as a means of birth control worth living under? I believe that slavery is morally better than abortion on demand as a means of birth control. A slave had the hope of individual or general emancipation. He could also hope to escape to Canada. Failing that, he was at least alive and could hope to change his status in the future. An aborted child has no hope. Being an aborted child is a status from which there is no appeal, no hope of better days. It is final and irrevocable.
This republic is good, but not perfect. The manner in which we go about seeking to improve the republic says a lot about who we are. We have constitutional ways of making the republic better. Northern abolitionists were impatient with these ways and deliberately sought to undermine the republic and its constitution. Their means deserve our disapproval, even when we applaud their ends. And both the means and the ends of their consolidationist northern allies deserve our disapproval.
What do you call "dissolving the union"?
Don't be melodramatic. Secession would not have "dissolved the Union." The Union would have continued just as before, only smaller, but, as Horace Greeley said, better, because it would have been slavery-free.
They didn't want to be left alone, they kept attacking Kansas and then even attacked Fort Sumter. If you want to be left alone, don't attack your neighbors.
Well, you're mixing up your chronology a little here. The Confederacy didn't "attack" Kansas until 1863 and 1864. As for Fort Sumter, it was "attacked" on December 26, 1860 by Major Anderson. Before that night, it was occupied only by construction workers. South Carolina had a right to occupy the fort (as long as they paid the US government for the fort and the property in it), since it was built to defend Charleston from invasion, but it was abysmal politics to fire on it, as Robert Toombs said at the time. My recommendation to Jefferson Davis would have been to negotiate with Great Britain for duty free trade with the Confederacy for ten years, provided that the trade would be carried in British-flagged ships. That would have put the ball back in Lincoln's court. If he does nothing, the Confederacy wins its independence by default. If the US Navy attempts to stop British ships to collect import duties, the Brits would have fought that and the Confederacy would have the world's greatest Navy on her side.
Respectfully,
D J White
Abortion violates the principles of the Constitution just like slavery did. It violates the the principles of the Preamble.
I believe that slavery is morally better than abortion on demand as a means of birth control. A slave had the hope of individual or general emancipation. He could also hope to escape to Canada. Failing that, he was at least alive and could hope to change his status in the future. An aborted child has no hope. Being an aborted child is a status from which there is no appeal, no hope of better days. It is final and irrevocable.
I don't know which one I'd rank worse. They both steal lives.
This republic is good, but not perfect. The manner in which we go about seeking to improve the republic says a lot about who we are. We have constitutional ways of making the republic better. Northern abolitionists were impatient with these ways and deliberately sought to undermine the republic and its constitution.
Northern abolitionists decided almost 100 years of the injustice of slavery was enough and knew that the way to save the Constitution was to eradicate the practices that violated it's principles.
Their means deserve our disapproval, even when we applaud their ends. And both the means and the ends of their consolidationist northern allies deserve our disapproval.
This country lived a lie until the Radical Republicans acted.
Don't be melodramatic. Secession would not have "dissolved the Union." The Union would have continued just as before, only smaller, but, as Horace Greeley said, better, because it would have been slavery-free.
We would've lived an existence of warfare just like Europe if we had divided.
Well, you're mixing up your chronology a little here. The Confederacy didn't "attack" Kansas until 1863 and 1864.
What was all those "bleeding Kansas" stories about then. The CSA was pro-slave. The pro-slave states wanted all the new states to have their same morality. They by no means wanted to be left alone.
As for Fort Sumter, it was "attacked" on December 26, 1860 by Major Anderson. Before that night, it was occupied only by construction workers. South Carolina had a right to occupy the fort (as long as they paid the US government for the fort and the property in it), since it was built to defend Charleston from invasion, but it was abysmal politics to fire on it, as Robert Toombs said at the time.
It was United States property. China didn't attack Hong Kong for 100 years simply because it was in the way. You should have left what wasn't yours alone.
My recommendation to Jefferson Davis would have been to negotiate with Great Britain for duty free trade with the Confederacy for ten years, provided that the trade would be carried in British-flagged ships. That would have put the ball back in Lincoln's court. If he does nothing, the Confederacy wins its independence by default. If the US Navy attempts to stop British ships to collect import duties, the Brits would have fought that and the Confederacy would have the world's greatest Navy on her side.
Britain couldn't win in 1776, they certainly couldn't win against 23 million Americans in 1860. Their time had passed as far as forcing their will on America. If they thought they could beat the union, they would've tried no matter what the deal they made with the South. They knew they couldn't and therefore steered clear of us.
WE'RE HERE. WE'RE INTOLERANT. GET USED TO IT!
bigophobia has no place in this age of tolerance. Embrace Bigotry.
80% of the document discusses slavery. That makes slavery a main point. To think otherwise is burying your head in the sand.
There is a difference. Northern radicals felt their moral position gave them the power to violate the constitution with impunity.
A country that makes slavery legal is a country that must be corrected.
Before you jump in and agree with them, remember that abortion clinic bomber Robert Eric Rudolph feels the same way.
He's doing what he thinks is right. The slaveholders did what they thought would only make them richer.
So does Osama bin Laden.
He's wrong and a dead man. Might makes right because it means God is on your side. Political power is ordained of God, whether for correction or for reward.
secession was LAWFUL. no less than the Chief Justice (AND a majority of the associate justices as well)of the USSC said so in 1866; that's why NO southron leader was tried for treason OR any other crime.
for dixie,sw
Nope. I like the South and took my vacation there for 7 days last year. Atlanta, Charlotte, and South Carolina. Got along with everyone great, met a babe from Hickory NC, a fun trip. I didn't meet anyone who told me to go home or anything like the way you and your friends would, whom I'm convinced are in the minority of opinion in the South.
...to re-phrase an old piece of wisdom, there is none blinder than he who won't see the plain truth.
Here's one I just made up: There's none blinder than one who ignores a big portion of the truth.
secession was LAWFUL.
Not the way the South did it according to the Constitution and the Supreme Court and they're the deciding authority.
...no less than the Chief Justice (AND a majority of the associate justices as well)of the USSC said so in 1866; that's why NO southron leader was tried for treason OR any other crime.
You were doing OK until you attacked Fort Sumter. Bad Mistake. Although you would've been brought back anyway for just up and leaving in a reneging kind of way. Next time do it proper, let the Congress and the Supreme Court set the terms for your departure and there won't be so much strife. I'm sure they'll give you a fair shake. It's better than the way you tried in 1861. You were screwed for 100+ years because of that.
Actually, I went back and looked closely at the document. It has two parts. One part outlines the "great principles (self-government and the right of the people to abolish a government when it becomes destructive of the ends for which it wa established). The other expresses South Carolina's disapproval of the manner in which northern anti-slavery was manifested itself. I divided the document up between the two portions. 2 and 1/2 of the document addresses state sovereignty and self-deternmination (1306 words). One and 1/2 pages address South Carolina's opposition to northern anti-slavery (880 words). The closest the document comes to approving of slavery is when it mentions that northern anti-slavery types have "denounced as sinful the institution of slavery."
A country that makes slavery legal is a country that must be corrected.
I agree, but how the country does this is critical. Northern extremists were more than willing to violate the constitution in their efforts to end the institution. Southerners had had enough. If you take control of the Federal government and you are willing to violate the constitution, our rights are no longer safe in the hands of the Federal government, so we are leaving the Union to you.
Before you jump in and agree with them, remember that abortion clinic bomber Robert Eric Rudolph feels the same way.
He's doing what he thinks is right. The slaveholders did what they thought would only make them richer.
I am vehemently anti-abortion, but I believe that Rudolph's tactics bring extreme discredit on the pro-life movement. If I knew where he was, I would call the police immediately because he undermines my beliefs.
So does Osama bin Laden.
He's wrong and a dead man. Might makes right because it means God is on your side. Political power is ordained of God, whether for correction or for reward.
Let's examine the implications of this position. The extremination of the Jews by the Nazis was right just because they had the power to do it? Osama probably believes that the "success" of the attack on the WTC and the Pentagon was achieved because God favored it. You shouldn't presume to speak for the Almighty. I don't know why some things happen, but I do not take the fact that they occured as a sign of Divine favor.
Respectfully,
D J White
Just like Satan used the bible wrongly to tempt believers, the Southern states use the Constitution wrongly to promote their wish to continue slavery. They were making the case for slavery. Most of the Declaration of Secession deals with slavery. If the Southern states were upset at the way the North was treating everything in a Constitutional manner, they wouldn't have singled out one issue to such an extent.
I agree, but how the country does this is critical.
100 years was enough. It was time to get radical.
Northern extremists were more than willing to violate the constitution in their efforts to end the institution.
Because the South wasn't following the principles of the Constitution in the Preamble.
Southerners had had enough. If you take control of the Federal government and you are willing to violate the constitution, our rights are no longer safe in the hands of the Federal government, so we are leaving the Union to you.
Our rights are no longer safe when an entire region ignores the principles of the Constitution to the point that they say one human has a right to own another based solely on the circumstances of their birth.
I am vehemently anti-abortion, but I believe that Rudolph's tactics bring extreme discredit on the pro-life movement. If I knew where he was, I would call the police immediately because he undermines my beliefs.
In this case maybe you're playing smart. What's worse though, killing someone before they murder again or not doing anything to prevent the murders? I would never attack an abortion doctor or clinic because I know that's not the answer and God is in control of our nation's destiny as long as we try to live His ways, but it is a very close call as far as principle goes.
Let's examine the implications of this position. The extremination of the Jews by the Nazis was right just because they had the power to do it?
Several times in Israel's and Judah's history God used an outside people for correction. The USA will have Jacob's trouble in the future for correction. What was the exact purpose in the holocaust era? I don't know. Maybe it was correction. Maybe it was a sacrifice for the rest of us as to the evil of man and the victims will be rewarded greatly just as the First century saints were sacrificed brutally and now no doubt will be greatly rewarded. We've had 50 years of relative peace since WW2 opened America's eyes.
Osama probably believes that the "success" of the attack on the WTC and the Pentagon was achieved because God favored it.
If Osama would study the bible he would see that the bible discusses these terrorist attacks and says the terrorists are going to be chastised in the hereafter for their crimes. Want for truth will lead people to God's word. Those who are attracted to writings other than God's don't really want truth.
You shouldn't presume to speak for the Almighty.
No but I can read the bible and relate what it says the best I can. Who are you going to believe, the bible, or a work that doesn't show any signs of super-intelligence?
I don't know why some things happen, but I do not take the fact that they occured as a sign of Divine favor.
Maybe not all the time. But God does get involved and we are His people. If His people are still united, I'd say there is a good chance God wanted it that way.
ANYPLACE in the southland will accept POLITE northerners; NO PLACE/NO ONE down here will put up with a loud-mouthed,arrogant,ignorant,flag-hating, hatefilled damnyankee for long, even when you spend lots of $$$$$$$$$$$$$.
for LIBERTY,sw
I only denigrate slaveholders that pushed for secession.
the surgeon general has determined that such anti-southern conduct IS hazardous to your NOSE! ANYPLACE in the southland will accept POLITE northerners;
Apparently you haven't read many of the threads on FR that say Northerners aren't welcome regardless.
NO PLACE/NO ONE down here will put up with a loud-mouthed,arrogant,ignorant,flag-hating, hatefilled damnyankee for long, even when you spend lots of $$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Hillary seemed to do OK down there.
nonetheless, you seem to me to be a prototypical damnyankee: ignorant and uncaring about the truth, poorly educated even on the most basic of facts AND hatefilled about the traditions/symbols/hero-martyrs of the southland. as such you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, such persons are NEVER/will never be welcome in the southland.
BTW, "the blonde witch project", another prototypical damnfool/leftist/damnyankee was tolerated in AR, but NEVER popular in ANY southron state, except with the leftist press/liberal DIMocRATS. the hillerybeast was ROUNDLY HATED by good southrons, from the time she first opened her loud, abrasive, damnyankee mouth.
she had BETTER stay home- the north deserves her.
for dixie,sw
What tradition, symbol, or hero-martyr have I been hateful toward?
as such you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, such persons are NEVER/will never be welcome in the southland.
I had a good time down there for 7 days. They must not have recognized my hatefulness. LOL
BTW, "the blonde witch project", another prototypical damnfool/leftist/damnyankee was tolerated in AR, but NEVER popular in ANY southron state, except with the leftist press/liberal DIMocRATS. the hillerybeast was ROUNDLY HATED by good southrons, from the time she first opened her loud, abrasive, damnyankee mouth. she had BETTER stay home- the north deserves her.
She seemed to well down there. WJC did well down there too.
Daisy, in my hearing said of her in 1989:"She should bathe,wash her hair, shave her legs, buy some pretty clothes,ditch her racist & anti-semitic attitude and shut her filty-talking mouth!"
regular folks of all groups DISPISED the witch, once they got to know her.
the saying here was, "if i'd been dumb enough to marry that !@#$%, i'd run around on her too".
for dixie,sw
Well, with all due respect, I thank God that there aren't too many people out there who agree with you and are willing to violently violate the Constitution in their efforts to achieve their agendas. The world would be worse off for it.
Respectfully,
D J White
You
I've never violently violated the Constitution. What are you talking about?
for dixie,sw
the CROSS of our eternal savior AND the stars & stripes were/ARE tarred with the SAME BRUSH then.
the KKK and ALL the other creeps used the US FLAG & the CROSS far more than the sacred banner of our CSA hero-martyrs. last week the History Channel ran the video of the last major Klan rally in DC;there was not a SINGLE CS flag in sight, but there were HUNDREDS of CROSSES & US flags in the march on the capitol!
the extremist,leftist,HATE-FILLED, racist,anti-semitic,arrogant,racebaiting damnyankees feel the SAME WAY about the CROSS & US flag.
for dixie liberty,sw
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.