ABRAHAM LINCOLN: AMERICA’S GREATEST WAR CRIMINAL

Southern Caucus ^ | ? | Ron Holland

[Leesylvanian]

Two things in my previous replies you must have missed: 1) I didn't read the article this thread is based on - I don't care what the author says, I'm responding to some of the replies; and 2) I don't want to make life a permanent tribunal on the sins of the past,as you state - I stated very clearly that I don't impose today's moral values on events of the past. I'm just pointing out misconceptions by some on this thread.

Another mistake you made is when you imply Virginia could have abolished slavery at any time. Don't forget, we had 160 years under the King and Parliament before the Revolution, and had the Civil War not occurred, slavery probably would have died a slow, natural death due to its increasingly non-profit nature as industry and technology advanced. We'll never know...

[x]

Eauxgod! You just make it up as you go along. The US abolished the importation of slaves in 1808. There was some small clandestine and illegal trade going on afterwards to Texas, Florida and South Carolina, but do you really think a slave ship could have sailed into Boston harbor illegally during the Civil War with slaves on board without attracting notice and condemnation? And what exactly would have been done with those slaves? If you have some real evidence that slaves entered the port of Boston as late as 1863 present it now, or stop making such claims. More information here.

[Leesylvanian]

And don't forget how the cheap labor was treated in the factories. When one dropped, bring in another. I think it would be preposterous to argue that they were treated better than the slaves in the South. In fact, due to financial investment and dependence, I would dare say that slaves had more protection. They weren't even allowed by most owners to work in factories (and there were factories in the South) because of the possibility of injury.

[Leesylvanian]

Didn't you read any of the 300+ replies in Friday's "Lincoln was not elected" thread of which you were a part? It was accepted by both sides that Virginia, New York, and possibly Rhode Island all had secession clauses in their ratification documents that were never denied by Congress; and, the first serious discussions of secession happened in the northern states.

[billbears]

You should thank Lincoln every day.

I agree wholeheartedly!!

Thank you Mr. Lincoln, for overpowering government
Thank you Mr. Lincoln, for overstepping your constitutional boundries(and I don't give a dern about Whiskey Acts created to cover a small rebellion 65 years prior, the powers he used were NOT in the Constitution)
Thank you, Mr. Lincoln for attacking Southern ports and allowing your generals to burn and pillage the South
Thank you, Mr. Lincoln, for giving our current POTUS a honest to goodness blueprint to follow when setting up military tribunals(even though yours were declared unconstitutional in 1866 by the SCOTUS)
Thank you, Mr Lincoln for starting one of the worst wars in history up to that time(even though you didn't get Congressional support)
Thank you Mr. Lincoln for ballooning the national debt 100 TIMES in a short four years

You know we do have a lot to be thankful to Lincoln for < /sarcasm>

[4CJ]

"It was a problem as the southern northern demand for slaves cocaine provided a ready flow of cash to entice owners dealers into the practice. "

So that justifies the Northern practice of sailing to Africa to obtain slaves? Why were the northerners not charged with kidnapping?

And what flag was it that was on those slave ships since 1641? (The 1st slaves arrived in 1638 aboard the Desire - Massachusetts legalized slavery in 1641 with the Body of Liberties). Why were the northerners not charged with kidnapping?

Do you forget about the millions of slaves that died crossing the Atlantic? They died on Northern ships.

[x]

I did miss your statement that you don't apply our values to the past, so parts of what I said may not apply to you personally. But I stand by what I've said as a characterization of how these debates go in general.

had the Civil War not occurred, slavery probably would have died a slow, natural death due to its increasingly non-profit nature as industry and technology advanced. We'll never know...

Agreed, but if "we'll never know," then surely "could" is preferable to "would." And people living at the time could only judge by what people actually said, not by some pattern that we coming afterwards see in history.

Finally, I urge you to read the article and see what you think about it. Sometimes reading what a real loony on one's own "side" thinks, can make one rethink things, or at least understand what people on the other "side" are reacting to.

[WhiskeyPapa]

"...in the wake of the assasination, editors, generals and public officials across the South voiced the opinion that the region had lost its best friend. Indignation meetings, so-called, were convened in many places. Lincoln stood for peace, mercy, and forgiveness. His loss, therefore, was a calamity for the defeated states. This opinion was sometimes ascribed to Jefferson Davis, even though he stood accused of complicity in the assasination....

He [Davis] read the telegram [bringing news of Lincoln's death] and when it brought an exultant shout raised his hand to check the demonstration..."He had power over the Northern people," Davis wrote in his memoir of the war," and was without malignity to the southern people."...Alone of the southern apologists, [Alexander] Stephens held Lincoln in high regard. "The Union with him in sentiment," said the Georgian, "rose to the sublimnity of religious mysticism...in 1873 "Little Elick" Stephens, who again represented his Georgia district in Congress, praised Lincoln for his wisdom, kindness and generosity in a well-publicized speech seconding the acceptance of the gift of Francis B. Carpenter's famous painting of Lincoln and the Emancipation Proclamation."...

[in 1880] a young law student at the University of Virginia, Thomas Woodrow Wilson, speaking for the southern generation that grew to maturity after the war, declared, "I yield to no one precedence in love of the South. But because I love the South, I rejoice in the failure of the Confederacy"...the leading propenent of that creed was Henry W. Grady, editor of the Atlanta Constitution. In 1886 Grady, thirty-six years old, was invited to address the New England Society of New York, on the 266th anniversary to the landing of the Pilgrims at Plymouth. General Sherman, seated on the platform, was an honored guest, and the band played [I am not making this up] "Marching Through Georgia" before Grady was Introduced. Pronouncing the death of the Old South, he lauded the New South of Union and freedom and progress. And he offered Lincoln as the vibrant symbol not alone of reconciliation but of American character. "Lincoln," he said, "comprehended within himself all the strength, and gentleness, all the majesty and grace of the republic." He was indeed, the first American, "the sum of Puritan and Cavalier, in whose ardent nature were fused the virtues of both, and in whose great soul the faults of both were lost."

--From "Lincoln in American Memory" by Merrill D. Peterson P. 46-48

Walt

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Lincoln may not have been perfect, but he was a great statesman nonetheless.  He was able to convince the Europeans (many of which felt that America fell under the heading of "unfinished business") to keep their mitts off while we settled our little contretemps over here on this side of the pond.

A feat of statesmanship that wasn't equalled until Bismarck unified the Germanic states (if then).

But more importantly, he did all he could to neutralize bad feelings because of the war (remember "malice towards none?"), and along with Davis, Johnson, Lee, and Grant managed to do so rather successfully (though posthumously in large measure).

Of the aforementioned leaders, he was the only one called on to sacrifice his life for his cause.

I take a look at some of the other leaders that the Union had to offer and shudder.  Imagine McClellan as president for example.  It came close to happening.  During the summer of '84, it was pretty much taken for granted by everyone, including Lincoln himself that he was a gone gosling.  That was because up to that point, the only battles won by the Union were in the west where the stakes weren't nearly as high.

No, Lincoln wasn't perfect, but there are few who have reached such heights as he.

[Ditto]

As the Civil War drew to a close, Jefferson Davis (1808-1889), president of the Confederate States of America, fled Richmond with his cabinet in early April 1865 and began a trek southward with federal troops in pursuit. While still weighing the merits of forming a government in exile, Davis was captured by Union soldiers near Irwinville, Georgia, in early May 1865 and was indicted for treason against the United States government on 24 May. Whether by accident or design, Davis was wearing his wife's dark gray raglan (a short-sleeved cloak) and black shawl when he was captured. Although one of Davis's own aides was persuaded his chief had indeed disguised himself as a woman to abet his escape, First Lady Varina Howell Davis (1826-1906) was incensed at accusations of her husband's cowardice in the Northern press. Her letter to the powerful Montgomery Blair (1813-1883), a friend of earlier years and postmaster general under President Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865), provides a firsthand, detailed account of her husband's capture. Readers must decide for themselves whether the sequence of events was entirely coincidental or the efforts were calculated to deceive and were subsequently misconstrued by a wife's protective instincts.

Source: http://www.civilwarhistory.com/101899/DavisCapture/jefferson_davis_capture.htm

[headsonpikes]

I would offer you a Lincoln penny for your thoughts but that would be to inflate the value of this puerile high-school essay.

Lincoln was a politician; saints are thin on the ground in the governing business.

[Ditto]

It was accepted by both sides that Virginia, New York, and possibly Rhode Island all had secession clauses in their ratification documents that were never denied by Congress; and, the first serious discussions of secession happened in the northern states.

It was not accepted by me, and I'm not sure who did 'accept' that. Where in those clauses was the word 'secession' used? Al I read were clauses that predated the Bill of Rights that were the equivilant of the 9th and 10th amendments.

[N.B.F.]

Lincoln and Sherman are actually supporters of the south. The Southmost Pit of Hell!!!

[Ditto]

"And don't forget how the cheap labor was treated in the factories. When one dropped, bring in another. I think it would be preposterous to argue that they were treated better than the slaves in the South. In fact, due to financial investment and dependence, I would dare say that slaves had more protection. They weren't even allowed by most owners to work in factories (and there were factories in the South) because of the possibility of injury."

Do you really want to stand by that one? Do you really think that slaves were better off than Northern factory workers? I'll give you a chance to back out.

[Eternal_Bear]

Lincoln was right. The South got stomped. The World is better for it. Get on with reality.

[Non-Sequitur]

Whether by accident or design, Davis was wearing his wife's dark gray raglan (a short-sleeved cloak) and black shawl when he was captured.

Accidentally wearing his wife's clothing? I'm sure that accidental cross-dressing happened all the time down south. Southern culture and all.

[tberry]

Shattering the Icon of Abraham Lincoln