Posted on 11/19/2001 6:09:34 AM PST by Notwithstanding
Catholic doctrine is as good as the paper it's written on if the punishment for going against it is sainthood.Where do you get this from? Most people aren’t made saints on the basis of their doctrine. We believe that following Christ requires far more then mouthing the correct doctrine. You have to take up your cross and follow Him, obey His commands. If you love Him and have faith in Him this is what you will do. Most people are made saints based on their faith in Christ and their having led an exemplary life. That their doctrine should be Catholic is also true, but you cannot assume that merely because they were made a saint the Church agrees with all their doctrine. Even for saints who are highly respected for their doctrine, for example St. Augustine, one of the great doctors of the Church, taught things that the Church does not agree with.
You seem to assume that just because I don't agree with you that the Church must fully agree with every single word uttered by any saint that I mean the Church makes people saints because they disagree with them? This is a false dicotomy, based on your errant assumptions. The Church makes saints based on an overall evaluation, we aren't so myopically focused on doctrine. There is more to being a Christian then merely stating "I believe." There is more to being a saint then doctrine, and we all fall short in some respects. Many, many saints have erred in at least one fashion doctrinaly, that does not mean the Church made them a saint for that one little error. Their lives and their humanity amounted to much more then this.
I stand by my statement of invincable ignorance and I will not respond to anymore of your posts nor will I take the time to read them.Not surprising. I don’t think you’ve been reading any of them. If you had, you couldn’t say:
All you Catholics out there.... Patent says Mary can hear your prayers but that doesn't mean she knows what you are talking about. Patents words, not mine.No, those are your words, not mine. Just like you have to twist Ligouri's words to mean what you would like them to mean, you twist mine hear to squeeze something out of them that simply isn't there. I said hearing millions does not make one all- knowing all- understanding. Surely you can understand a slight difference between knowing all and knowing that a million people are asking you to pray for them. Or perhaps you can’t understand that. I don’t know. My quote:
Hearing Millions does not make one all-knowing and all-understanding. Hearing everyone doesn’t make one either of those. Hearing is not knowing. It is also not understanding. Do you see the difference between these? Do you know everything about everything you hear? No, of course not. Another simple logical error.*****
It is quite possible that there are intermediates between the earthly ability to hear or understand a couple people; and being God. We do not know precisely what happens to us when we get to heaven, but the Catholic view is that we exist in our Glorified bodies. These are capable of far more then we are now. Regardless of that you make a simple logical error when you assume hearing a million people makes you all-knowing. A million aren’t all, and hearing is not knowing.
After this response I think anyone reading this thread would admit you've gone beyond logical.I seriously doubt any lurkers are reading this far into the thread, but if any are I like my chances.
It is now the law of the land because someone in authority interpreted it into the Constitution. It was not there until the Supreme Court said so, as you admit by saying “it is now”. No one in authority has interpreted Ligouri’s words into Catholic doctrine. And no one will."The equivalent would be ignoring the United States Constitution and reading Thomas Jefferson’s commentary on Monetary Policy as the law of the land. This would be absurd, of course. The Constitutional Congress did not consider and vote on any and all works by Jefferson. The states did not approve his words wherever they appeared"We don't find Separation of church and State in the Constitution. It was in Jeffersons writing. It is now the law of the land. (I would scrap this analogy in future debates if I were you.)
The rest of your post doesn't merit a response.That is because you don’t have one. You can’t contend that every word or theological idea Luther uttered is Lutheran doctrine. Yet you contend that every word or theological idea any saint ever uttered is Catholic doctrine? You can’t respond to that because it is so obviously false.
You also can’t respond to the actual doctrine I’ve posted, which refutes your claims. There is really nothing you can say. You are wrong. Period. You have no business claiming you know what Catholics believe and Catholics do not know what they believe, even the more so when you can’t even quote an official Catholic source, all of which are available online, for your claims. So, my post doesn’t merit a response. You have none.
Dominus Vobiscum
patent +AMDG
Rhetorical Questions to myself and other Catholic Apologists here:
If a thread is several days old and several hundred posts long, the "undecided" will be few. Your apologetics are not intended to convert those whose hearts and minds are closed. They are intended to illuminate the intellect and soul of those still open to Truth, and still willing to learn. I doubt that many of those make it to this point in threads here. Therefore, your time is being spent only on those you are directly responding to, when they do their own self search. Is that an effective use of your time and talent? Or would prayer, not words, be more effective at this point? Are we trying to win souls, or points of debate?
Just a few thoughts I ask myself constantly on these types of threads, i.e., where is my time better spent, reading to my kids and spending time with my spouse, or trying to convert those late on a thread whose minds and hearts are hardened?
The question you and other catholics should be asking yourself is:
Why is roman doctrine so different from what God had recorded for us in the Holy Bible?
Thank you for the tacit admission that roman doctirne is man made and not inspired by God.
May the Lord open your eyes before it is eternally too late.
Every committed Catholic I know does likewise. I cannot speak for uncommitted Catholics.
By any measure of any fundamentalist or evangelical Christian I have read or met, I am "saved."
Who then are you to judge me as eternally damned?
It is you who fall unto judgement, if for no other reason that you take unto yourself that which is only the role of God, namely judging men's souls worthy of eternal damnation. Further, and more grave, you attribute to the devil that which is the work of the Holy Spirit.
Thus, I repeat, may God bless you abundantly, and forgive you for your blasphemies against Him and His Church.
I have a question for you. I want a simple yes or no answer.
I am a faithful Catholic. I believe everything the Catholic church officially teaches (though much of what you think she teaches she does not.)
Furthermore, I have a deep abiding faith in Jesus Christ and I have accepted Him as my personal Lord and Savior. Though most committed Catholics do not understand or acknowledge the "accepted Him as my personal Lord and Savior" lingo, I know that in their hearts they have. Why? Because our Church teaches that to attain salvation, we must
know Him (clearly a personal knowledge of the Lord,)
Love Him (clearly LOVE is a personal relationship with the Lord,)
and serve Him (to serve Him is to repent and believe and live a life of charity, according to Jesus' own guidelines by which we will be judged, i.e., did you feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit the sick, etc, as well as believe.)
So...any committed Catholic who knows, loves, and serves the Lord (one of the basics of the old Baltimore Catechism) has accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior, even if they don't know that lingo.
This is the sole measure of a man's salvation in fundamental and evangelical Christianity.
Therefore my question. I have that personal relationship with Jesus. Am I, a committed Catholic Christian, in your opinion saved? Or am I, as you imply when you state, "May the Lord open your eyes before it is eternally too late," damned, as a Catholic?
Yes or no?
Funny, in post 366 you say:
It is you who fall unto judgement, if for no other reason that you take unto yourself that which is only the role of God, namely judging men's souls worthy of eternal damnation. Further, and more grave, you attribute to the devil that which is the work of the Holy Spirit.
Then:
Furthermore, I have a deep abiding faith in Jesus Christ and I have accepted Him as my personal Lord and Savior. Though most committed Catholics do not understand or acknowledge the "accepted Him as my personal Lord and Savior" lingo, I know that in their hearts they have. Why? Because our Church teaches that to attain salvation, we must
So, you judge now?
Though most committed Catholics do not understand or acknowledge the "accepted Him as my personal Lord and Savior" lingo
The above is a most telling statement. Salvation comes ONLY by Grace through faith. You can't buy it, you can't earn it, no human is perfect enough to deserve it and you tell me that even most "committed catholics" don't understand that.
know Him (clearly a personal knowledge of the Lord,)
Love Him (clearly LOVE is a personal relationship with the Lord,)
and serve Him (to serve Him is to repent and believe and live a life of charity, according to Jesus' own guidelines by which we will be judged, i.e., did you feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit the sick, etc, as well as believe.)
So...any committed Catholic who knows, loves, and serves the Lord (one of the basics of the old Baltimore Catechism) has accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior, even if they don't know that lingo.
This is the sole measure of a man's salvation in fundamental and evangelical Christianity.
Therefore my question. I have that personal relationship with Jesus. Am I, a committed Catholic Christian, in your opinion saved? Or am I, as you imply when you state, "May the Lord open your eyes before it is eternally too late," damned, as a Catholic?
Yes or no?
If you "have that personal relationship with Jesus" the Holy Bible that God inspired says you're Saved.
If you "believe everything the catholic church officially teaches" you are trying to live a paradox.
Committed Catholics do have that personal relationship. So I take it your answer then is, yes, committed Catholics are saved?
How can your mythical "committed catholics" "accepted Him as my personal Lord and Savior" and not understand or accept the idea?
Committed Catholics do have that personal relationship. So I take it your answer then is, yes, committed Catholics are saved?
If you accept roman dogma, my guess would be no. If you buy into the "purgatory" scam which is nowhere even hinted at in the Bible (i.e. baptism, good deeds, mass, sacriments to shorten your time or others' time in purgatory) you are trying to earn salvation by your works and rejecting Jesus as the only way to Heaven.
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