Posted on 11/19/2001 6:09:34 AM PST by Notwithstanding
In 1998, Ramerman and two priests, the Rev. James Callan and the Rev. Enrique Cadena, as well as many parishioners, split from Corpus Christi in Rochester. It resulted in the formation of Spiritus Christi, a 1,500-person congregation independent of the diocese that celebrates Sunday Mass at Hochstein Music School downtown. Ramerman's first Mass as a priest is 8 a.m. today. While she is considered an Old Catholic priest, Spiritus Christi remains an independent church. The auburn-haired mother of three now goes by the title of the Rev. Mary Ramerman. Parishioners need not call her "father," the traditional name associated with Roman Catholic priests. Rather, just call her "Mary," she said.
Kind of a tradition in light of Christ's choosing only men as his apostles.
hey, i'm only infallible part of the time as well. call me pope.
Unless the US Supreme Court or some little piss-ant judge says you RC’s in American can’t discriminate.
Reminds me of a joke I heard the other day.
"If God had wanted us to use the metric system,
Jesus would have only had ten disciples."
Gee, what does His Infallibleness have to say about this:
Who is Junias the Apostle mentioned in Romans 16:6-8? Junias was a women apostle not just some nice little house wife. She was not just among the Apostles; She was of note among the Apostles. Tertulein wrote a letter talking of Junias saying that she was an outstanding woman Apostle. John Chrysostom a bishop circa. 337-407 said of Junia, "oh how great is the devotion of this women that she should be counted the appellation of Apostle." Origen of Alexandria said the name Junia is a variation of the name Julia as dose Thayer’s lexicon. Leonard Swidler cited Jerome -340-419- calling Junia a Female Apostle. Hatto of Vercelli, Theophylack and Peter Abelard all note Junias as a chief women apostle
From the link Should Women Lead?
14:34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive as the law also says.
14:35 And if they want to learn something let them question their husbands in their homes; for women to speak in church is shameful.
14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
Here Paul is dealing with the propriety of women speaking in church. This is believed to be because of a cultural bias, and the fact that the temple prostitutes who worship Dionysus, and the other so called God’s we rather unruly and outspoken. According to Leon Morris, for women to teach at that time it would discredit the newly formed way of Christianity in the eyes of the Greeks and the Jews. To become all to all they were admonished to follow the trend in abstaining from all appearances of evil. Paul is not saying that women are not to pray and prophesy because in 1 Cor 11:5. In Chapter eleven verse five Paul said "Everyone women praying and prophesying." This is not an admonition not-to preach or prophesy. In the "Hebrew-Greek key study bible" the footnote says it is possibly because the women were acting unruly not too much unlike the temple prostitutes. Women were used and involved in high places of ministry in Paul’s ministry, in the early church, even in Greek culture. In the Old Testament there were women used mightily by God to lead and teach. Joel 2:28,29 says "In the last days… your daughters shall prophesy… and upon the handmaids in those days I shall pour out my spirit." Miriam was a prophetess of The Lord Ex 15:20. Deborah the prophetess was used of God to lead Israel and to win physical battles Judges 4-5. Huldah was a prophetess of The Lord who authenticated the scroll of the law 2 King 22; 2 Chron 34. In the New Testament Tabitha (Dorcas) was a disciple with the ministry of helps Acts 9:36. Phillip had four daughters that were prophets Acts 21:8,9. Euodia and Syntyche were co-workers with Paul in his struggle to spread the gospel. Priscilla a fellow worker with Paul who was mentioned as being higher in authority than her husband Rom 16:3,4. Usually in scripture the first name designates authority. Phoebe a leader at the church Cenchrea, actually the leader of the church Rom 16:1,2. The word to describe Diakonos which means deacon or minister. This designation was the designation for an official leadership position in the New Testament Church. Junias was identified as an Apostle of The Lord Rom 16:7. Many have changed it from the original Greek Junias to Junia, trying to suite their male oriented societies bias. Mary was the completion of women’s redemption. Both Mary and Joseph were of the line of David. God chose the female lineage to bring the Messiah rather than the male, this was contrary to Jewish culture the Messiah should have come through the males blood but Jesus reversed the curse. Through women was the redeemer born. Only God who is perfect and holy could save the world and women was the only way Jesus could come to earth and still be fully God and fully man. Women was created mans equal complete, women had all that she needed, man needed more. Eve was made to be his helper to come alongside, being an equal she degraded herself by starting the dissention. In the redemption Jesus redeemed women Gal 3:28. We are all part of one body, God has called us all and women need to be able to the ministry God has called them to also. The first message Jesus gave His church He gave to Mary Magdalene to tell the disciples He was alive Matt 9:8-10. God is no respecter of persons Rom 2:11; 2 Sam 14:14; 2 Chron 19:7; Acts 10:34; Eph 6:9.
Women in leadership roles has been a divisive issue since Adam and Eve got kicked out of the garden. Women in Ministry is a historical, contextual and biblically proven issue. We must no longer suppress women otherwise we will offend them and they will leave the church for one of the neo-pagan women’s liberation movements, Deborah Arise! Women can be leaders, Joel 2:28,29 says "In the last days… your daughters shall prophesy… and upon the handmaids." Paul says in 1 Cor 11:12 "If anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God," also in vs. 13 he again says to "Judge among yourselves, is it proper…? Vs. 15 says that the women's hair is her covering. Basically Paul is saying that it is a cultural thing i.e. avoiding the appearance of evil because of the bald temple prostitutes of the goddess Aphrodite and Dionysis.
Who is Junias the Apostle mentioned in Romans 16:6-8? Junias was a women apostle not just some nice little house wife. She was not just among the Apostles; She was of note among the Apostles. Tertulein wrote a letter talking of Junias saying that she was an outstanding woman Apostle. John Chrysostom a bishop circa. 337-407 said of Junia, "oh how great is the devotion of this women that she should be counted the appellation of Apostle." Origen of Alexandria said the name Junia is a variation of the name Julia as dose Thayer’s lexicon. Leonard Swidler cited Jerome -340-419- calling Junia a Female Apostle. Hatto of Vercelli, Theophylack and Peter Abelard all note Junias as a chief women apostle
In the case of Priscilla and Aquila both the husband and wife were the leaders of the church not just one, Rom 10: 2-6. Both are called fellow workers. Priscilla is a female name, and both Priscilla and Aquila were fellow workers and had a church in their house. Author David Canistraci in his book on Apostles refers to Priscilla a Female Leader.
Don't let us forget Deborah a Women leader, recorded in the bible and blessed by God and no scripture says she was used because no man would stand up, if so show me! Romans 16:6 Mary worked hard among the Romans. Rufus's mother mothered Paul, apostolic men father so apostolic women would mother. Paul talks of the apostolic anointing in feminine terms, 1 Thes 2:6-8. Nympha is a women who had a church in her house Colossians 4:15. Chloe was a female in leadership and her people reported to Paul, 1 Corinthians 1:11. Women were redeemed on the Cross and are not second rate, slave citizens of heaven. Men and women are equal in relationship in the home God has put the man over the women as to headship and spiritual authority. Men and women are both admonished to submit one to another. The home does not relate to church structural authority. Galatians 3:28 says, "There is no Jew nor Greek, Slave nor Free, MALE nor FEMALE in the body of Christ." If women can not be a viable part of church leadership we are a four cylinder car running on two cylinders and the word of God says that we can not tell our other parts that they are not of us or can't function among us because we do not like them - 1 Cor 12:12-18.
Paul when discussing the issues of whether or not a women should lead in churches and how they should act said, "if anyone seems continuous, WE HAVE NO SUCH COSTUME nor do the CHURCHES OF GOD," 1 Corinthian 11:16. This text shows that it was a cultural COSTUME not a biblical mandate, i.e. note use of the "costume." Paul’s notes that there are two things here that he did in the churches he planted and ministered in that was different than what the other Apostles did. He even made a note that there is no such costume in the churches but it was his costume being he was a devote Jew and not wanting to offend them. He held to his lifelong personal opinion and ministry style. The only reason He ordered his churches in this way was because of culture issues. If you look at 1 Cor 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:11-15 you will see that in both contexts he was warning them to not look or act like the temple prostitutes/priestesses of the goddess of Dionysus, Aphrodite and Astoreth who had shaved heads and would chant and prophesy in demonic ritualistic practices along with eating blood sacrificed to idols. We are admonished to shun from evil practices hating even the appearance of evil. The first sermon preached after his resurrection was by Mary and Martha not peter and Paul. Jesus sent Mary and Martha to tell the others the good news.
The Greek word in 1 Cor 11 translated by some as "head" literally means "source" denoting source of derivation not authority. Now Christ is God the Son and Father God is His 'source' of authority and power. Jesus is still fully God. The same word is used twice in first Corinthians so in the manner that you use the word to describe the Christ you must use in the same manner towards women. Does Christ have all power and authority or not, does God the Father? They are equal Phil 2:6, the same with male and female. God made the male and female not subjugator and subject. Jesus is the redeemer of women. A woman carried and raised Jesus. Women were called bone of bone and flesh of flesh terms of equality not of subjugation and how does 1 Cor 11:8-9 fit into that. 16. Do we live in a patriarchal society? Jesus did we don't, this issue is a cultural and contextual issue not a theological issue. Should we force a historical culture on a present culture, NO! We must be true to who we are not who we were. The Gospel never changes but the context it is set in and the culture always change try planting a church in Afghanistan playing Christian Rock to some local Aborigines. That wont work unless you find a pack of heavy metal head bangers in the forest. Have the attitude of Christ one of Humility not Subjugation Phil 2:5-6. In His Presence are liberty and freedom not bondage and subjugation.
1 Cor 14:34-36 says "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive as the law also says. And if they want to learn something let them question their husbands in their homes; for women to speak in church is shameful. Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?" Here Paul is dealing with the propriety of women speaking in church. This is believed to be because of a cultural bias, and the fact that the temple prostitutes who worship Dionysus, and the other so called god's were rather unruly and outspoken they would shave there heads and prophesy in chants. According to Leon Morris, for women to teach at that time it would discredit the newly formed way of Christianity in the eyes of the Greeks and the Jews. To become all to all they were admonished to follow the trend in abstaining from all appearances of evil. Even in the Old Testament when it was culturally unacceptable women were used mightily of God to lead and teach. However Miriam, Deborah and Huldah were prophetesses who were used mightily for God. Joel 2:28,29 goes on to say, "In the last days… your daughters shall prophesy… and upon the handmaids in those days I shall pour out my spirit." So you see that scripturally women can be ministers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We must no longer oppress or suppress those called of God.
patent
SD
In this liberal suburb of Seattle, you do have to license your cat. We're geographically and politically left of Seattle.
This is a classic story of "if you don't do it my way we'll change the rules and start our own game." It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, just as long as it is what they want.
Almost all of the churches claiming to be Old Catholic in North America have no relationship with the Old Catholic Churches in Europe. Their claims to the apostolic succession are based in illicit and possibly invalid episcopal consecrations of a French prelate, Joseph Rene Vilatte, in 1885, and Arnold Harris Mathew, an English Catholic priest/Unitarian layman/Anglican priest/Catholic layman in 1906. In neither case did the Old Catholic Churches recognize their orders.
Both Vilatte and Harris went around ordaining any man a priest or bishop who wanted to be one. And the practice continues to this day among the dozens of little Old Catholic sects in North America. These episcopi vagantes will often give their sects, and themselves, ornate titles (His Excellency the Right Reverend Joe Blow, Presiding Bishop of the North American Old Holy Catholic and Apostolic Independent Orthodox Church), but their cathedrals will often be in rented storefronts or their basements, and they may have more bishops and priests than actual adherents. They also collect lines of apostolic succession (Catholic-Anglican-Orthodox-Nestorian-Armenian) like baseball cards, with bishops from other sects reconsecrating each other so they can collect the whole set.
Those who weren't legitimate clerics before usually have a spotty theological education, and some of them will ordain anybody for $40 and a cut of the collection plate.
They tend to run the gamut from pre-Vatican II hyper-traditionalists to hyper-liberals, although most of them have definite liberal leanings. (Their churches will often advertise sacraments to the divorced and remarried, married and women clergy, and freedom of conscience about contraception and abortion.)
All in all, a very sad lot, and my prayers are with them in the hopes that they will turn away from their errors and return to the Church.
Huh? What are you talking about ?Your words are pretty much my response to your post above. But what I was talking about is simple. Your sqib is silly. The Pope hasn’t commented on such things because there is no need to. He doesn’t address each and every argument somebody with a web page makes. He really limits himself, seeing as he only works 16 hours a day, to serious discussions. That is not a serious discussion.
Who is Junias the Apostle mentioned in Romans 16:6-8? Junias was a women apostle not just some nice little house wife. She was not just among the Apostles; She was of note among the Apostles.Romans 16:6-8:
6 Greet Mary, who has worked hard among you.She? The vast majority of the Biblical translations don’t refer to a gender, those that do indicate she was a he. I don’t think you can treat this as a given.
7 Greet Androni'cus and Ju'nias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners; they are men of note among the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.
8 Greet Amplia'tus, my beloved in the Lord.
TertuleinTertullian
wrote a letter talking of Junias saying that she was an outstanding woman Apostle.What letter is this? I’d be curious to read it. As for Tertullian, his views were clear. From On Baptism, para. 17:
But the woman of pertness, who has usurped the power to teach, will of course not give birth for herself likewise to a right of baptizing, unless some new beast shall arise like the former; so that, just as the one abolished baptism, so some other should in her own right confer it! But if the writings which wrongly go under Paul's name, claim Thecla's example as a licence for women's teaching and baptizing, let them know that, in Asia, the presbyter who composed that writing, as if he were augmenting Paul's fame from his own store, after being convicted, and confessing that he had done it from love of Paul, was removed from his office. For how credible would it seem, that he who has not permitted a woman even to learn with over-boldness, should give a female the power of teaching and of baptizing! "Let them be silent," he says, "and at home consult their own husbands."That women are very important to the Church is undeniable. That they should be priests based on your quotes and ideas is absurd.
patent +AMDG
DUH! NO KIDDING!
The problem is with you , not me, if you thought I actually expected the THE POPE to web surfing, see my post and respond. Are you ok?
Unlike SOME religionists. ;^)
The problem is with you , not me,That’s one way of looking at it. There are other options.
Are you ok?Yes.
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