Prayer Warriors Fight Church-State Division

Nope. We're all entitled to our own opinions. But it helps if we're informed.

acquatined = acquainted, of course.

FYI: Our Founding Fathers: The denominational affiliation of these men is a matter of public record. Among the delegates were 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown and only 3 deists--Williamson, Wilson and Franklin, this at a time when church membership entailed a sworn public confession of biblical faith.(John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987), p. 43.)

This is a very revealing tally. It means that the members of the Constitutional Convention, the most influential group of men shaping the political foundations of our nation, were almost all Christians, 51 of 55--a full 93%. Indeed, nearly 20% were Calvinists (the Presbyterians and the Dutch Reformed), considered by some to be the most extreme and dogmatic form of Christianity.

Some quotes of our Founding Fathers:

" You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention." George Washington
General George Washington encouraged all of his men to conduct themselves in a Christian manner: "To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to laud the more distinguished character of Christian." On January 1, 1795, George Washington wrote the National Thanksgiving Proclamation: "In such a state of things it is an especial manner our duty as a people, with devout reverence and affectionate gratitude to acknowledge our many and great obligations to Almighty God, and to implore Him to continue and confirm the blessings we experience." At one point, Washington said about the correlation of good government and Christian ideals: "True religion affords government its surest support. The future of this nation depends on the Christian training of our youth. It is impossible to govern without the Bible."

There are too many other passages such as the above that refute the claims that George Washington was a deist. I have read many and cannot see that George Washington ever believed that God was/is not involved in our lives or our government. As far as others of our Founding Fathers, I cite lines from a few:

Let...statesmen and patriots unite their endeavors to renovate the age by...educating their little boys and girls...and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." Samuel Adams
"History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion...and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." Benjamin Franklin
"Only one adequate plan has ever appeared in the world, and that is the Christian dispensation." John Jay, (original Chief Justice, U.S. Supreme Court)
"The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians." John Qunicy Adams

There is revisionism going on in our history books and school rooms to discredit the Judeo/Christian tenets upon which this nation was founded. Its purpose: to rid America of God.

Billy Graham’s daughter said it best after the attacks. Allow me to paraphrase her remarks as to why God has allowed 9/11 to happen: Because God is a gentleman, He has allowed Himself to be shoved aside by our Nation, a long time ago. He’s watching what’s been happening to our country ever since. Now He’s just waiting for us to invite Him back.

I am not saying that Billy Graham's daughter claimed God allowed 9/11 to happen because we deserve it. She was asked a rhetorical question by one of the liberal talking head media personalities. And I am not saying our country deserved 9/11. But it sure did get many people's attention back on God, Who can use evil and turn it around for good.

There are over 200 Founders (55 at the Constitutional Convention, 90 who framed the First Amendment and the Bill of Rights, and 56 who signed the Declaration) and any generalization of the Founders as deists is completely inaccurate.
The reason that critics never mention any other than a few of the Founders is evident. For example, consider what must be explained away if the following signers of the Constitution were to be mentioned: Charles Pinckney and John Langdon—founders of the American Bible Society; James McHenry—founder of the Baltimore Bible Society; Rufus King—helped found a Bible society for Anglicans; Abraham Baldwin—a chaplain in the Revolution and considered the youngest theologian in America; Roger Sherman, William Samuel Johnson, John Dickinson, and Jacob Broom—also theological writers; James Wilson and William Patterson—placed on the Supreme Court by President George Washington, they had prayer over juries in the U. S. Supreme Court room; and the list could go on. And this does not even include the huge number of thoroughly evangelical Christians who signed the Declaration or who helped frame the Bill of Rights.
Any portrayal of anything more than a handful of Founders as deists is inaccurate. (Some irreligious Founders: Henry Dearborne, Charles Lee, or Ethan Allen).

This is pulled from the following link: Religious Nature of Founding Fathers

I assume it is something like me finding salvation? Already had it once. Then I started questioning. Then I started getting some answers. Unfortunately, they weren't answers that supported the Christian idea of god.

No offense, but you never had salvation, David... because you never surrendered your heart. You held out. Salvation is a life-changing experience... and you're never the same again. Christians aren't perfect...still human...still make mistakes and sin... but there is a deeper desire to become more like Christ...than to be a part of the world and it's ways. King David sinned... yet he was the apple of God's eye because he was truly repentant and humble before the Lord.

You "tried" salvation with your own will and deeds. It doesn't work that way. That's why you could so easily toss it aside when it became inconvenient or too hard to be "righteous" under your own power. We are made righteous by the Blood of Jesus, who took the burden of our sins upon Himself, then gave us the Holy Spirit in which we have power to overcome our sinful nature. It's a never-ending, lifelong learning experience. You never "arrive".... you're never "finished"...knowing ALL God is trying to teach us; it's a walk....and a relationship. It's like a marriage, which is the way He describes His relationship with the church (Christians). We're always growing, shifting and maturing.

You know you're saved when you have an intense hunger for the things of God, digging deep into His Word to know Him and have a personal relationship with His Son, Jesus Christ. (There is a "release" that you can physically feel.) It will be so precious that no amount of money can buy your decision to walk away or pervert His Word.....and no amount of influence or threat, could make you renounce your devotion to Him.

There are alot of fakes out there... who profess to be Christian to get your money and then live like the devil... outside of the limelight. They're not fooling God, just themselves; nor will they get away with it, ultimately. It's unfortunate, but the enemy's (Satan and his minions) mission is to kill, steal and destroy...thru deception.....as he presents himself as an "angel of light". Without the discernment that God gives us through His Holy Spirit, we fall prey to Satan's trickery and destruction.

What earnestly concerns me ...is that everyone will stand before God Almighty to give account of themselves. It is most dangerous for those who have known the things of God and walked away... than to have been totally ignorant of Him. He puts before you this day... life and death; choose life. :)

Au contraire. There is much wisdom and beauty in the Bible. I consider the Song of Solomon to be among the great works of literature, and Ecclesiastes is the best book overall.

There is also SOME historical fact in the Bible. I would never deny that much. I simply understand the total truth about the work of any sacred text of any religion. There is much editing, myth-making, etc that go into the process.

As for hostile witnesses that speak about Jesus, you wouldn't be talking about that edited passage that was inserted into Josephus' writing, would you?

You wrote: "David, no I am not comfortable with the fact that many, many people are in hell and going to go there. But you know what? It doesn't change the fact. It does motivate me to reach as many people as I possibly can though. If more people had taken God seriously there would not be nearly as many people in hell. Again, it is not God's fault. We are all fit for hell due to our sinful nature. It is he who gives us the opportunity to escape. " But God created hell! No-one forced him to do that - he could have, for example, created a place where non-beleivers go that was not a place of suffering. As a good being, to create a place of infinite suffering should be an impossibility and yet he still did it...What good is being served through the eternal suffering of billions of people, many of whom did not get the chance to search for the truth (for example, tribes on Borneo in 13 BC.) Do they go to hell for the simple reason that they were born in a time and place that made it impossible for them to know Christ?

Are you saying that God helped me achieve atheism?

I agree with what you have written. I have searched for a consistent morality in the Bible and the only one that I can see is might makes right. The ten commandments are nothing special - every known civilisation had something similar (you can't be a civilisation by allowing murder and theft to happen all the time). I lost my faith through trying the impossible - reconciling a good God with hell. And it is impossible.

You wrote: "You "tried" salvation with your own will and deeds. It doesn't work that way. That's why you could so easily toss it aside when it became inconvenient or too hard to be "righteous" under your own power."

You mistake my reasons for 'tossing' my faith away. It was not inconvenient to have faith. It was not too hard to be righteous - I never even claimed to be righteous. I am just like everyone: trying to be the best person I can be and often failing horribly.

I lost my faith because I could not understand how a loving God could condemn anyone to an eternity of suffering. No matter who I talked to or what I read, this did not make sense. That unravelled my faith.

You say that those who have known God and then walked away will have the most to fear? As far as I can tell, there are only two options in the Bible: Heaven or Hell. ANd the only ones going to Heaven are believers. Assuming that the religion is right, I have no more to fear than any other non-believer. An eternity of suffering is an eternity of suffering. And if God exists and he sends me there for the crime of not believing in him, then he cannot be a just God. ANd if he is not a just God, you have as much to fear from him as everyone else...

I lost my faith because I could not understand how a loving God could condemn anyone to an eternity of suffering.

Oh... I get it... You're angry at God! That makes more sense to me. Been there, done that. He never said that we wouldn't suffer, David. He did say that He would help us through our trials...IF we trust Him to. If you think that life is tough.... Hell is HELL...and it's forever!

God never condemned us to a lifetime of suffering....we do that to ourselves. He sent His Son so that we might have LIFE.. and have it in abundance.... the good with the bad.... the rejoicing and the sorrow. Many dark times in my life.... I wondered "why".... and didn't find out until later, that had I not been put in that situation....I'd have never met certain individuals to touch/help them, or vice-versa. It's not just about ME and how happy "I" can be! (What a concept in today's society, eh?) We have a real purpose in being here and serving Him, but we can choose our own way.... and choose to suffer the consequences.

James 1

2 Dear brothers and sisters, whenever trouble comes your way, let it be an opportunity for joy.

3 For when your faith is tested, your endurance has a chance to grow.

4 So let it grow, for when your endurance is fully developed, you will be strong in character and ready for anything.

5 If you need wisdom--if you want to know what God wants you to do--ask him, and he will gladly tell you. He will not resent your asking.

6 But when you ask him, be sure that you really expect him to answer, for a doubtful mind is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.

7 People like that should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.

8They can't make up their minds. They waver back and forth in everything they do.

Yes, I am angry at God. Non-existant beings make me so angry. I'm forever having massive arguments with leprachauns and unicorns. And you know what? The bastards never seem to lose an argument!

Now I have got some sarcasm out of my system, I will respond on a more even keel. The reason I no longer believe that God exists is because of a logical contradiction. It is as follows: 1.) The Bible says that God is good.

2.) The Bible says that many people will go to Hell, a place of eternal suffering.

3.) God made this place of eternal suffering.

4.) Good beings do not allow others to suffer eternally if they can prevent it.

5.) God could have prevented it by not doing 3.

6.) Therefore, God cannot be good.

7.) As the Bible says God is good yet God cannot be good from what the Bible says about Hell, the Bible cannot be true.

8.) If the Bible is not true, Christianity is a false religion.

9.) Therefore, Christianity is a false religion.

You have to dump hell to keep God good. But if you dump Hell, the whole reason to believe in God goes with it. If you go the other way and keep hell but deny God is good, you end up with the problem of why would a GOd who is not good tell the truth about anything?

This shows that the whole basis for the religion is flawed. All other spiritual belief systems that I have examined have similar flaws.

1.) The Bible says that God is good.

That is correct.

2.) The Bible says that many people will go to Hell, a place of eternal suffering.

IF you do not accept Him as your Lord and Savior...Yes. You have a choice.

3.) God made this place of eternal suffering.

He made it for Satan and his demons when they were thrown out of Heaven for their rebellion. It was never designed with us in mind... but since you can't go to Heaven without accepting His mercy and grace... you can choose to follow Satan into hell, instead. BTW, I'm sure you know that Satan's rebellion consisted of puffing himself up...and declaring that he would exalt himself above God.

4.) Good beings do not allow others to suffer eternally if they can prevent it.

He gave you a way out. He sacrificed His only Son for your sins. You have a choice not to suffer by accepting the way, the truth and the life... Jesus Christ.

5.) God could have prevented it by not doing 3.

I refer you back to #3. You choose this of your own free will. We aren't robots...and He won't force us to follow Him.

6.) Therefore, God cannot be good.

That sir, is twisted, illogical reasoning based on your emotions and circumstances...but doesn't make it so....

7.) As the Bible says God is good yet God cannot be good from what the Bible says about Hell, the Bible cannot be true.

I refer you back to #6. Psalms 14:1 & 2: A fool has said in his heart, "There is no God", They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. I suggest you read the rest of it.

8.) If the Bible is not true, Christianity is a false religion.

Prove it. Better men than you or me... have tried and failed.

9.) Therefore, Christianity is a false religion.

I refer you back to #8.

David, I sincerely pray that you will find forgiveness in your heart for whoever and whatever has hurt you....which has made you bitter, rebellious and angry against God. I thank you for this interchange, which proves to me what happens when we allow the wisdom of God to be thrown out of our public institutions and men begin to think more of themselves, than they truly are. His people perish for lack of knowledge. (His words, not mine.. :)

One of my earlier statements has come true!

First off, I had a christian tell me that I was an atheist because my life was perfect. Now I have one telling me that I am an atheist because I am bitter and twisted. Come on, guys! Which is it?

you wrote in response to my point number 3:

"3.) God made this place of eternal suffering.

He made it for Satan and his demons when they were thrown out of Heaven for their rebellion. It was never designed with us in mind... but since you can't go to Heaven without accepting His mercy and grace... you can choose to follow Satan into hell, instead. BTW, I'm sure you know that Satan's rebellion consisted of puffing himself up...and declaring that he would exalt himself above God."

If Hell was made for Satan, why can't God make someplace else for the unbelievers? God chooses what happens to people who choose to not believe (although you cannot actually choose what you believe but that is a separate story) - he chooses to have them suffer eternally. Or are you telling me that there is nothing God can do for these people except have them tortured for eternity?

The only twisted logic is yours, I am afraid.

You wrote: "David, I sincerely pray that you will find forgiveness in your heart for whoever and whatever has hurt you....which has made you bitter, rebellious and angry against God."

This actually insults me, to be perfectly honest. However, I will be charitable: 'Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.' I think this applies well to many Christians...

Josephus, the Jewish historian, is one such source. But I will throw in with him Tacitus, Porphyry, Celsus, Pliny, and Tertullian. There is much research to be done...

God did create Hell, but only because he allowed Man to have freewill (a gracious gift from an all-powerful being, wouldn't you agree?), and Man chose to exercise this freewill against God. Therefore, Man necessitated the creation of Hell. When you think of Hell, understand that Hell is place of complete and utter seperation of Man from God. It's not a mideival torture chamber run by Demons as you seem to envision (true?). It's a place of complete and utter seperation, and isn't that what the atheists strive for? By going to Hell you might actually be gaining the reward you seek through your efforts to be atheistic. The monkey-wrench in the machine, however, is that once you die and are judged and know the truth and beauty of God's existence and the joy of union with him, there will be nothing more torturous to you than the thought of being seperated from Him. And, of course, that instant of realization happens too late. You will gnash your teeth in eternal torment. Good and Evil, we all reap what we sow. Take care in what you sow.

Of course you still have time. And you seem to at least have an interest. I pray you will devote some real study to this. Instead of trying to rationalize and disprove the contents of the Bible, try a new approach and focus on the truths that that you do find in there. Expound upon them. I do this for myself, because I am only a Man as well. I am a sinner and deserve the seperation myself. But through study I have an inkling of what that entails. I'll do my best not to fall into that trap myself or to allow those I love through my faults to do the same. (I ramble ... sorry).

PS. I am not a Calvanist; I am a follower of Christ and a student of the Bible.

If Hell was made for Satan, why can't God make someplace else for the unbelievers? God chooses what happens to people who choose to not believe (although you cannot actually choose what you believe but that is a separate story) - he chooses to have them suffer eternally. Or are you telling me that there is nothing God can do for these people except have them tortured for eternity?

Hell is a place completely isolated from God. If you are not on one side of the coin, you are on the other. Would you propose that God create a third side to the coin, one that is "kinda near God, but kinda separated too"? Why should He? Because you feel that would "just"? What can Man teach God about justice?

Thanks for your response.

Just a quick reply as I have to go.

The definition of 'just' is punishment or reward equal to the action. Infinite punishment, even if that is simply suffering caused by separation from God, can not be just. Surely God could work out a system of temporary separation depending on the circumstances of each individual?

Which is it?

Well, I'm sure you know which one it is.... but what I see is bitterness. BTW, God isn't obligated to get your approval for the things He does or doesn't do. Read Job 40 thru 42 to answer your questions about His character and authority. It will reveal quite a bit about your views here. While you're reading... go to Luke 16 and read about Lazarus and the rich man. It will answer your questions about hell. Just remember...hell doesn't have exits...and you can't go for a test-drive to see if you like it...or approve. Once you're there...it's forever. Your choice.