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To: Elihu Burritt
Like I said, someone of your viewpoint should allege that they are United States citizens or Christian. If you are neither, it is perhaps an understandable misunderstanding on your part.

Your response is a little garbled but I'll try to address it anyway: I am a US citizen (born in Michigan) and I notice that WE have inalienable rights because we declared it to be so and instituted a government to protect said rights. I do not agree, however, that the rights are "self-evident" (for if they were, why did it take tens of thousands of years for humanity to produce a government that finally recognized them?) and I don't believe they are given by a god because I'm an atheist and even if I weren't, no one has ever yet produced a Biblical verse saying anything like "I, God, confer upon humans the right to live. I myself cannot even violate that right." Therefore, the right to live exists only among people who have declared it to be so and can back it up with force. Do either the Jews or the Muslims have this right? (The Israelis might, I don't know.)

375 posted on 11/16/2001 1:23:52 PM PST by Anamensis
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To: Anamensis
Your response is a little garbled but I'll try to address it anyway: I am a US citizen (born in Michigan) and I notice that WE have inalienable rights because we declared it to be so and instituted a government to protect said rights.

This is not the case. We have them because they are part of how poeple are made. You may chose your own viewpoint on the Creator, whether it be a he, she or pair of dice, but all men are made the same. Darwin proved this, and modern DNA substantiates it. The Founders were quite clear in their viewpoint on the matter, and they you don't understand or agree with them. It's a free country, and the Creator doesn't not make us with knowledge installed.

I do not agree, however, that the rights are "self-evident"

I would say that your powers of observation are delimited by your prejudices. Perhaps the fault of a government school, or just a lack of knowledge of the world and of the behaviour of man in general.

(for if they were, why did it take tens of thousands of years for humanity to produce a government that finally recognized them?)

A good question, but I am not going to write a book. Evolution threads don't fare well here as the ignorance and pre-conceptions founded in our racist history still dominate a lot of people's thinking.

and I don't believe they are given by a god because I'm an atheist

That's backwards you know. You weren't created first and then the world.

and even if I weren't, no one has ever yet produced a Biblical verse saying anything like "I, God, confer upon humans the right to live. I myself cannot even violate that right."

Silly notion. Again, you define the answer, then go looking for the questions. You won't resolve anything that way, but you will peg yourself tight in a little box of your own fabrication. Given that you profess atheism, why should I begin to imagine you have spent much time with the Bible or with any religious studies? Why then should I think you know anything about that which you have predefined as not relevant to your life?

Therefore, the right to live exists only among people who have declared it to be so and can back it up with force.

A pointless process and argument. Some might call you quite unlikeable and small minded.

Do either the Jews or the Muslims have this right? (The Israelis might, I don't know.)

Given that you defined the terms and the approach for yourself, you should not be surprised at your answers, but neither should you take them as all encompassing. I suggest you do some more study and reasoning until you get to first base. That's not saying you have to change your end conclusions, just that you have to do less pre-judging and over simplyfying before you start out. Your understanding of the founders and history is truly superficial. I can't imagine you could learn more about them and still stick to your veiwpoints though.

387 posted on 11/16/2001 1:24:35 PM PST by Elihu Burritt
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