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Public education not patriotic: Don Feder urges patriotic Americans to support school choice initiat
WorldNetDaily.com ^ | Wednesday, November 14, 2001 | Don Feder

Posted on 11/16/2001 1:05:51 PM PST by JohnHuang2

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1 posted on 11/16/2001 1:05:51 PM PST by JohnHuang2
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To: JohnHuang2
I'd like to see this go beyond the discussion of school choice initiatives, and move to a complete spearation of school and state.

In any event, I'd be quite pleased to see much more public discussion of the issue.

2 posted on 11/16/2001 1:05:53 PM PST by OWK
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To: *Education News; JohnHuang2
*Education News bump... (Free Republic Bump List Register)
3 posted on 11/16/2001 1:06:02 PM PST by EdReform
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To: JohnHuang2
So Liberals aren't capable of running private schools? You don't think five minutes after vouchers pass the same liberal people in public schools won't be running private ones? How does a voucher give me choice? Unless every private school goes to lottery selection of students rather than by who can afford the tuition price - how can you guarantee me my child will get into the school OF MY CHOICE.

If you can't absolutely guarantee me that my child will go to my school of choice, then I'm not interested in vouchers, because there won't be any 'choice' if good schools are unavailable to my child (because they are full, or of my lack of social status or money) and the public schools go bankrupt with the resulting cut in funds, taking my child down with it.

I agree changes in Public Education need to be made, and I think if people got involved and tried to change things - they could make the changes they want. I have been able to change things I don't like in my district - all it takes is going to the school board meetings, meeting with administrators and when necessary writing letters to the editors to get public support, organized parents have alot of power to change things.

When I ask Voucher supporters what work they have done to improve the situation they are unhappy about in the schools - I always get the answer "nothing".

Vouchers seem like the Ritalin of the school change movement - it is easier to take vouchers than doing the hard work of changing the system.

4 posted on 11/16/2001 1:06:03 PM PST by mostlyundecided
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To: OWK; *Homeschool_list
bump for homeschool discussion
Homeschooling is the only patriotic choice over socialist (Public) schools
5 posted on 11/16/2001 1:06:04 PM PST by Khepera
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To: OWK
More discussion? I'm happy to oblige....

Chasm in education
6 posted on 11/16/2001 1:06:08 PM PST by Daus
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To: Khepera; KentuckyWoman
"...Homeschooling is the only patriotic choice over socialist (Public) schools..."
=====================================================


Bump - for more Homeschoolers.....

7 posted on 11/16/2001 1:06:33 PM PST by Alabama_Wild_Man
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To: mostlyundecided
Let me try to answer your concerns by explaining fundamentally what the 'voucher' concept is as proposed by Milton Friedman 30 years ago. Each state should collect all the money it spends on education and put it in one big pot. Then they should figure out how many kids of school age are in the state. Divide the total quantity of money in the pot by the total number of kids in that state and that is the amount of money a 'voucher' is to be worth to a school that actually educates the child. The parent would select the school and give the school his voucher that is given to the parent by the state and then the state would reimburse the school for educating the child. This is the general idea.

Currently the amount of money spent per child in private schools is significantly less per child than the amount of money spent in public schools per child and yet those private schools it is recognized universally are doing a much better job. The evidence is very clear that private schools do a better job across the board with upper income, middle income and lower income children from all backgrounds.

There are always many voucher or other school choice proposals all over the country. There are some feeble school choice programs actually in place in some states also. I say feeble because only a few parents are able to exercise that choice. These programs are generally very popular with the parents though. However, the politicians, both Democrat and Republican, normally tend to oppose these things.

In some major cities the majority of public school teachers send their own kids to private schools, but have the ability to influence the politicians to keep the public school monopoly on education for everyone else who can't afford a better choice.

The politicians who tend to support such programs are either representatives of minorities in inner cities or conservative radicals. Both groups are generally ostracized by the leaders in each of the two parties. President Bush' rhetoric during the campaign last year did support school choice concepts, but activists who support school choice are very dissatisfied with Bush' education initiatives and they feel that he opposes their cause.

8 posted on 11/16/2001 1:06:47 PM PST by Red Jones
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To: Red Jones
The problem is that many middle class parents have worked hard to get to a town where the schools are less horrible than in the inner city. They see the voucher plan as bringing all the problems they tried to escape right to their own neighborhood.
9 posted on 11/16/2001 1:06:59 PM PST by thucydides
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To: OWK
It is remarkable to note how many great Americans cut their teeth on the Bible as young scholars. Lord knows, that can't be allowed in public school.
10 posted on 11/16/2001 1:07:01 PM PST by Elihu Burritt
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To: Red Jones
Here are two simple reasons why conservatives should NOT support vouchers.

1. Vouchers are not now, and will NEVER be available to the middle classes, who make up the vast bulk of those paying private school tuitions. Vouchers are a *means-tested* program for the poor. In other words, vouchers are an extension of welfare programs - in this case, welfare for the poor so that they can attend private schools.

2. State tax money should NOT go to religious schools, especially since we have all become unfortunately more aquainted with "jihadist" Islam since 9/11. There is NOTHING stopping an Islamist school from receiving voucher money. Do a search of the NY area newspapers for quotes from Islamic schools in the NY area, and how "patriotic" the students quoted were. Do you want your tax dollars supporting this? I don't.

11 posted on 11/16/2001 1:07:01 PM PST by ikanakattara
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To: Elihu Burritt
It is remarkable to note how many great Americans cut their teeth on the Bible as young scholars. Lord knows, that can't be allowed in public school.

There should BE no public schools.

Government schools touting religion, are every bit as bad as government schools touting secularism.

Parents (and not state) should decide what their children are taught.

12 posted on 11/16/2001 1:07:06 PM PST by OWK
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To: JohnHuang2
Abolish the police state department of education.
13 posted on 11/16/2001 1:07:17 PM PST by mbb bill
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To: OWK
Secularism is a religion. A lame one, but one just the same.
14 posted on 11/16/2001 1:07:23 PM PST by Elihu Burritt
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To: ikanakattara
I very much disagree with you on both counts.

1) We can fashion any school choice program we desire, we citizens are sovereign in this nation. We should fashion a school choice program for everyone, not just for a few parents in poor areas where the schools are said to be terrible. But even if a voucher proposal were for only a few poor people, I would still support it, why shouldn't we seek to give everyone every advantage they can get. Such a program would benefit some people and demonstrate that the idea is good.

2) Historically in our civilization and in other civilizations religion or theology has played a central role in educational institutions. To purge the exploration of theology from the schools is to in fact destroy the schools. People of all religious faiths schould be able to send their kids to the schools of their choice if such schools are available. I would like the money I pay in taxes to go towards the schools of the parents' choice, not the schools that the godless bureaucrats offer us.

The First Ammendment says something very similar to 'congress shall make no law with respect to religion or to abridge the freedom of speech'. It does not say that schools funded by the various states and local governments can't have theological ideas or even worshop in them. The Supreme Court has never interpreted the constitution in that manner also.

When public schools were first founded in America in early 1800's New England these states did in fact give money directly to the churches that did the education of the children. By law you had to send your kid to school, but you could select which church school they went to. Then when the catholics came over there were bigots like you who said we can't let the catholics get taxpayer dollars. That's when they centralized the schools and eventually pushed god out.

It is unfortunate that such a system would result in sub-standard opportunities for some kids whose parents selected bad schools, but it is better to allow opportunity and freedom than to squash it with this very expensive and stifling public school system that so many parents strongly disapprove of.

15 posted on 11/16/2001 1:07:24 PM PST by Red Jones
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To: Elihu Burritt
You seem to be missing my point.

Government should not be teaching religion OR secularism.

It should not be involved in schooling at all.

Parents should choose the education they want for their children on the free market. If they want their children to recieve a religious education, that's what they should buy. Likewise with parents who want their children to recieve a secular education.

16 posted on 11/16/2001 1:07:24 PM PST by OWK
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Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: mostlyundecided
Straight from the NEA talking points. Very good.

You don't want vouchers, don't take them. Meanwhile let the rest of us do what we want.

18 posted on 11/16/2001 1:09:37 PM PST by LarryLied
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To: Elihu Burritt
It is remarkable to note how many great Americans cut their teeth on the Bible as young scholars.

Which is why literacy rates topped 98% in Massachusetts in the late 1840's, a level never since reached again (MA was the first state to mandate, by law, government schooling, also in the 1840's).

19 posted on 11/16/2001 1:09:38 PM PST by LarryLied
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To: LarryLied
Which is why literacy rates topped 98% in Massachusetts in the late 1840's, a level never since reached again (MA was the first state to mandate, by law, government schooling, also in the 1840's).

True, and blacks were enrolled in the same schools as whites. Out of that came the Abolitionists, and that scared the hell out of the government so badly they decided to never let that happen again. At the same time, 1 out of every 6 blacks were enrolled in higher education, while in the south, the great majority of the white population was illiterate.

It was not against the law in Massachusetts at the time to study the Bible, and most of the men who created this marvelous system did so on educations acquired reading both the Bible and the ancients in Greek and Latin. If that's what it takes, we won't see it again anytime soon.

20 posted on 11/16/2001 1:09:52 PM PST by Elihu Burritt
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