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Passenger Plane Crash in Queens NYC!
Fox News ^

Posted on 11/12/2001 5:30:38 AM PST by Attila_the_Hun

AA Passenger plane has crashed in Queens, live video on Fox News... Developing!


TOPICS: Breaking News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aaflight587; flight587; harbour
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To: Basilides
I don't have an answer. The tail I saw showed no damage of any kind.
941 posted on 11/12/2001 4:11:59 PM PST by DugwayDuke
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To: Terrorista Nada
I'm still curious...what kind of experience do you have with aircraft maintenance? What kind of real world experience do you have in anything? You seem to feel free to disparage my training and experiences...so what exactly do you do or have you done, besides ranting?
942 posted on 11/12/2001 4:57:15 PM PST by Tennessee_Bob
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To: Attila_the_Hun
As a former Jet Engine Mechanic I can speak to some aspects of this air crash in New York! In the 1960's I was stationed @ the Old Plattsburgh AFB in upstate New York for two years. Working at the test cell facility and doing flightline maintenance operations; there were some scary situations doing run up and performance and acceptance on Turbojet Engine Equipment.

On the concrete pad where we worked there were several compressor and turbine blades impaled into the concrete underneath the stand where the engine was restrained. We did a variety of Water injection and viberation tests to prove out the newly rebuilt spare engines.

The turbine section of an axial flow jet engine I worked on had the individual blades attached to the hub by a system called fir tree serations and were locked into position by a special heat treated rivet. Once the rear of the engine was assembled the turbine rotor could be inspected for cracks with a system called dye penetrant and during assembly a system called zyglow was used to get additional help in locating cracks or other distortions.

There is a flightline instrument we also used to inspect the internal componets called the Borescope. This had a magnyfying lens with a bright light that could be positioned in front of the turbine section not able to be seen from the rear of the engine.

Another situation we dealt with on a regular basis was the problem of Bird Strikes. The Airframes and the Engines are particularly at risk. The leading edges of the airplanes were visited regularly by the sheet metal shop to replace the damaged skin of the Airframe. On at lease two occasions I remember a B-52 came in with one or two engines completely "Shelled Out" meaning you could look straight through the engine. The wing strut usually was intact but required massive re-fitting and of course replacement of the engines involved. That area of New York is part of the wildlife flyway and Canada Geese were most often the culprit.

As a mechanic the first thing you were taught is to stay out in front of a engine when its running. You never want to remain in the "Plane Of Rotation" of the compressor or the turbine any longer than you have to be there, for obvious reasons. If a engine were to shell out for any reason it would turn you into hamburger! When a mechanic like myself was required to "Trim Or Adjust The Power Settings" we had to get right next to the engine fuel control to do this proceedure especially on the flight line during launch operations. At the test cell at least you could use the servo actuated remote trimming device to keep you at a safe distance and position. The dynamics of a piece of high speed turbo machinery is very unforgiving. The noise,heat and other variables made this a nervy job to say the least. You had to be constantly alert to avoid disaster but when you are young and well trained you don't think about all the pitfalls otherwise the job would never get done!

This crash is still being investigated and I have no idea if it was a catastrophic failure of the equipment but this I do know. The close tolerances this kind of machinery operates at has to be treated as zero tolerance. Every stage of its operation must be preceeded by cleanliess and attention down to the most minute detail. If this was not the case then bad things happen very quickly. This is why when I was in the service I used to lay awake at night going over my proceedures to make sure I safety wired that tubing nut and bolts right; because it was my life on the line as well as others and I signed off the Forms before we went flying off into the wild blue yonder!

943 posted on 11/12/2001 5:04:31 PM PST by Windy-Dave
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To: eno_
Finally saw the video y'all are talking about (re: the tail, or "chopping the tail off the plane"). You had me concerned there for a bit, I thought you were talking about a complete tail section. That was just a vertical stabilizer.

Hmmm...maybe they used that monkey wrench to loosen all the bolts on the vertical stab before they hid it in the inlet.

944 posted on 11/12/2001 5:11:05 PM PST by Tennessee_Bob
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To: Tennessee_Bob
Still a mystery???
945 posted on 11/12/2001 6:08:51 PM PST by undergroundwarrior
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To: undergroundwarrior
Yes, as a matter of fact, it is. Do you have definitive proof of what happened to the aircraft or are you running on gut feelings?
946 posted on 11/12/2001 6:17:45 PM PST by Tennessee_Bob
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To: lawdude
I merely ask that people base their comments on FACT.

You speculated about the chances of this being terrorist driven here. There are a limited numbers of FACTs so far (quite out numbered by conflicting stories), so how do you determine that this isn't terrorist related? By speculating........Thank you.

947 posted on 11/12/2001 6:18:19 PM PST by TankerKC
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To: Tennessee_Bob
I don't have any gut feelings now. Stories about what happened / what did not happen keep changing. Information the press is giving often is not accurate.
948 posted on 11/12/2001 6:24:03 PM PST by undergroundwarrior
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To: undergroundwarrior
Crew List

Captain Edward States
First Officer Sten Molin

Flight Attendant Deborah Fontakis
Flight Attendant Barbara Giannasca
Flight Attendant Wilmer Gonzalez
Flight Attendant Joseph Lopes
Flight Attendant Michele Mills
Flight Attendant Carol Palm
Purser William Valdespino

Rest in Peace.
949 posted on 11/12/2001 6:31:25 PM PST by Crimson
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To: hellinahandcart
I saw a map of the flight path on another thread, and it takes pretty much a straightout approach, with a little curve to avoid the JoCo wildlife preserve - which is SOP.
950 posted on 11/12/2001 6:36:23 PM PST by bootless
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To: Tennessee_Bob
OK, so the wing comes off, taking the tail off... now, did an exploding engine take the wing off? Or was the bright flash seen by at least one eyewitness a bomb?

So far, none of the war stories about exploding engines on this thread indicate they are bad enough to take off enough wing that would, in turn, shear off the vertical stabilizer at the base.

951 posted on 11/12/2001 6:54:54 PM PST by eno_
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To: Tennessee_Bob
Hi Bob,

What's your opinion of the photo of the vertical stab that the USCG pulled out of the water? Looks like the whole rudder is just gone, which the leading edge and most of the surface of the stab looked mostly untouched...

952 posted on 11/12/2001 6:59:50 PM PST by bootless
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To: eno_
How about common sense?

Sorry but the FBI should not make public statements on what they consider common sense, instead, they should rely on hard facts.

953 posted on 11/12/2001 8:55:19 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: **AA Flight 587
Indexing
954 posted on 11/13/2001 12:13:34 AM PST by Lion's Cub
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To: eno_
I thought the spinscam was: engine explodes, which blows off the wing, then the wing knocks off the tail - laughable, but hey, they can try, can't they?
955 posted on 11/13/2001 12:40:21 AM PST by 185JHP
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To: Tennessee_Bob
There is only one problem with your theory, 30 minutes after this crash, before the fuel oil fire was out, the gubment shills started with "...this obviously was not a terrorists strike, this was mechanical failure..." and it hasn't stopped yet. Something is rotten in Queens.
956 posted on 11/13/2001 12:49:06 AM PST by exnavy
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To: bootless
Also, it looks more like a mechanical separation (stress and structural failure) as opposed to an explosive separation.
957 posted on 11/13/2001 3:05:15 AM PST by Tennessee_Bob
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To: exnavy
I can't help what the government says. But because the government said that, does that mean that it was a terrorist incident?
958 posted on 11/13/2001 3:06:33 AM PST by Tennessee_Bob
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To: 5by5
I am saying that a wholly pilotless system is technically feasible, but would be fragile, impractical, and serve no useful purpose. An override from the ground for emergency purposes is feasible and desirable, as it will prevent or mitigate 9/11 type of disasters. It should be implemented and used before the method of last resort -- shooting the plane down -- is used. A malicious attack on such system in order to cause airliners to nosedive is not feasible since only a few people need to have access to the keys, just like the presidential "football".
959 posted on 11/13/2001 7:59:31 AM PST by annalex
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To: Attila_the_Hun
See:

Did a Bomb Bring Down Flight 587?

960 posted on 01/12/2002 6:07:41 PM PST by mrustow
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