Apologizing For Bible Truth ?

God can and does use his sovereign control over the forces of evil to orchestrate a win for righteousness. Your quote is of no meaning against that principle. It forbids mankind to do evil. It does not forbid God to permit Satan and to permit men to do evil.

Though you fudged the words, what you have said is that God demands of man that he never commit evil that good may come, but that God does commit evil that good may come. This is an absurd accusation against God, unless the weasel words, God permits ... to do evil, does not mean God does it, in which case, why even mention God. If Satan and men are doing evil because God has relinquished control of them, God is out of the picture, but if He is in control, He's responsible.

Can't have it both ways.

Hank

It is not popular to call sin ..sin...

Gal.1:10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Falwell did not simply "call sin...sin."

He claimed to have some devine knowledge as to specify which human sufferings are for which specific sins.

I couldn't imagine the sort of arrogance and meaness it would take to "comfort" the victims of a horrific crime, by listing which sins they are being "punished" for.
This is the sort of unChristian behavior that gives Christians and bad name.

Falwell achieved something rather unique. His statement angered about 75% of all Americans. His apology angered the 25% who had agreed with his initial statement.

He shouldn't have apologized. I'm not sure his statement was correct or that God had revealed to Falwell His purposes in allowing or possibly causing the WTC/Pentagon attack. But he should have stuck with it anyway. Apologizing made him even more unpopular and those who wanted the apology didn't forgive him anyway.

Would you call the distruction of Sodom..all the women and children evil? Or would you call it just?

The TRUTH is, God sometimes removed His protection, in the Bible, off of sinning Hebrews-- not Gentiles, who didn't know Him. God said He would spare Sodom if there were even 10 righteous people-- indicating that God's protective hand depends on HIS people, (not those that don't know Him.) Falwell was wrong, and unBiblical, in his blame.

BIBLICAL MODEL OF WIDESPREAD INDIFFERENCE TO
INDIVIDUAL SINS LEADING TO NATIONAL JUDGEMENT
Note the application to ALL nations, not just Israel.

Genesis 15
12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: "Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete." 17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates-- 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites."

Genesis 18
The Lord's Patient Forbearance for the sake of a few righteous inhabitants of the land
Abraham Intercedes for Sodom 16 Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to send them on the way. 17 And the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing, 18 since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice, that the LORD may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him." 20 And the LORD said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know." 22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD. 23 And Abraham came near and said, "Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city; would You also destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous that were in it? 25 Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" 26 So the LORD said, "If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes." 27 Then Abraham answered and said, "Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: 28 Suppose there were five less than the fifty righteous; would You destroy all of the city for lack of five?" So He said, "If I find there forty-five, I will not destroy it." 29 And he spoke to Him yet again and said, "Suppose there should be forty found there?" So He said, "I will not do it for the sake of forty." 30 Then he said, "Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Suppose thirty should be found there?" So He said, "I will not do it if I find thirty there." 31 And he said, "Indeed now, I have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: Suppose twenty should be found there?" So He said, "I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty." 32 Then he said, "Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?" And He said, "I will not destroy it for the sake of ten." 33 So the LORD went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.

Leviticus 18
20 Moreover you shall not lie carnally with your neighbor's wife, to defile yourself with her. 21 And you shall not let any of your descendants pass through the fire to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God: I am the LORD. 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. 23 Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion. 24 "Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. 25 For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants. 26 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, either any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you 27 (for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who were before you, and thus the land is defiled), 28 lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 29 For whoever commits any of these abominations, the persons who commit them shall be cut off from among their people. 30 "Therefore you shall keep My ordinance, so that you do not commit any of these abominable customs which were committed before you, and that you do not defile yourselves by them: I am the LORD your God."'

Deuteronomy 8
Remember the LORD Your God

Warnings Against Forgetting the LORD
1 "Every commandment which I command you today you must be careful to observe, that you may live and multiply, and go in and possess the land of which the LORD swore to your fathers. 2 And you shall remember that the LORD your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not. 3 So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD. 4 Your garments did not wear out on you, nor did your foot swell these forty years. 5 You should know in your heart that as a man chastens his son, so the LORD your God chastens you. 6 "Therefore you shall keep the commandments of the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to fear Him. 7 For the LORD your God is bringing you into a good land, a land of brooks of water, of fountains and springs, that flow out of valleys and hills; 8 a land of wheat and barley, of vines and fig trees and pomegranates, a land of olive oil and honey; 9 a land in which you will eat bread without scarcity, in which you will lack nothing; a land whose stones are iron and out of whose hills you can dig copper. 10 When you have eaten and are full, then you shall bless the LORD your God for the good land which He has given you. 11 "Beware that you do not forget the LORD your God by not keeping His commandments, His judgments, and His statutes which I command you today, 12 lest--when you have eaten and are full, and have built beautiful houses and dwell in them; 13 and when your herds and your flocks multiply, and your silver and your gold are multiplied, and all that you have is multiplied; 14 when your heart is lifted up, and you forget the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage; 15 who led you through that great and terrible wilderness, in which were fiery serpents and scorpions and thirsty land where there was no water; who brought water for you out of the flinty rock; 16 who fed you in the wilderness with manna, which your fathers did not know, that He might humble you and that He might test you, to do you good in the end-- 17 then you say in your heart, "My power and the might of my hand have gained me this wealth.' 18 "And you shall remember the LORD your God, for it is He who gives you power to get wealth, that He may establish His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day. 19 Then it shall be, if you by any means forget the LORD your God, and follow other gods, and serve them and worship them, I testify against you this day that you shall surely perish. 20 As the nations which the LORD destroys before you, so you shall perish, because you would not be obedient to the voice of the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 28
Blessings and Cursings - - When Patience Runs Out

Blessings on Obedience
* 1 "Now it shall come to pass, if you diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God, to observe carefully all His commandments which I command you today, that the LORD your God will set you high above all nations of the earth. 2And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, because you obey the voice of the LORD your God: 3 "Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country. 4 "Blessed shall be the fruit of your body, the produce of your ground and the increase of your herds, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks. 5 "Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. 6 "Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out. 7 "The LORD will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before your face; they shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways. 8 "The LORD will command the blessing on you in your storehouses and in all to which you set your hand, and He will bless you in the land which the LORD your God is giving you. 9 "The LORD will establish you as a holy people to Himself, just as He has sworn to you, if you keep the commandments of the LORD your God and walk in His ways. 10 Then all peoples of the earth shall see that you are called by the name of the LORD, and they shall be afraid of you. 11 And the LORD will grant you plenty of goods, in the fruit of your body, in the increase of your livestock, and in the produce of your ground, in the land of which the LORD swore to your fathers to give you. 12 The LORD will open to you His good treasure, the heavens, to give the rain to your land in its season, and to bless all the work of your hand. You shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow. 13 And the LORD will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only, and not be beneath, if you heed the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you today, and are careful to observe them. 14 So you shall not turn aside from any of the words which I command you this day, to the right or the left, to go after other gods to serve them.

Curses on Disobedience
* 15 "But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: 16 "Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country. 17 "Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. 18 "Cursed shall be the fruit of your body and the produce of your land, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks. 19 "Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out. 20 "The LORD will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me. 21 The LORD will make the plague cling to you until He has consumed you from the land which you are going to possess. 22 The LORD will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with severe burning fever, with the sword, with scorching, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish. 23 And your heavens which are over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you shall be iron. 24 The LORD will change the rain of your land to powder and dust; from the heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed. 25 "The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them; and you shall become troublesome to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 Your carcasses shall be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and no one shall frighten them away. 27 The LORD will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed. 28 The LORD will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart. 29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you. 30 "You shall betroth a wife, but another man shall lie with her; you shall build a house, but you shall not dwell in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but shall not gather its grapes. 31 Your ox shall be slaughtered before your eyes, but you shall not eat of it; your donkey shall be violently taken away from before you, and shall not be restored to you; your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and you shall have no one to rescue them. 32 Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, and your eyes shall look and fail with longing for them all day long; and there shall be no strength in your hand. 33 A nation whom you have not known shall eat the fruit of your land and the produce of your labor, and you shall be only oppressed and crushed continually. 34 So you shall be driven mad because of the sight which your eyes see. 35 The LORD will strike you in the knees and on the legs with severe boils which cannot be healed, and from the sole of your foot to the top of your head. 36 "The LORD will bring you and the king whom you set over you to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other gods--wood and stone. 37 And you shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all nations where the LORD will drive you. 38 "You shall carry much seed out to the field but gather little in, for the locust shall consume it. 39 You shall plant vineyards and tend them, but you shall neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. 40You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil; for your olives shall drop off. 41 You shall beget sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for they shall go into captivity. 42 Locusts shall consume all your trees and the produce of your land. 43 "The alien who is among you shall rise higher and higher above you, and you shall come down lower and lower. 44 He shall lend to you, but you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail. 45 "Moreover all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. 46 And they shall be upon you for a sign and a wonder, and on your descendants forever. 47 "Because you did not serve the LORD your God with joy and gladness of heart, for the abundance of everything, 48 therefore you shall serve your enemies, whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in need of everything; and He will put a yoke of iron on your neck until He has destroyed you. 49 The LORD will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a nation of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young. 51 And they shall eat the increase of your livestock and the produce of your land, until you are destroyed; they shall not leave you grain or new wine or oil, or the increase of your cattle or the offspring of your flocks, until they have destroyed you. 52 "They shall besiege you at all your gates until your high and fortified walls, in which you trust, come down throughout all your land; and they shall besiege you at all your gates throughout all your land which the LORD your God has given you. 53 You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the LORD your God has given you, in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you. 54 The sensitive and very refined man among you will be hostile toward his brother, toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the rest of his children whom he leaves behind, 55 so that he will not give any of them the flesh of his children whom he will eat, because he has nothing left in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates. 56 The tender and delicate woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground because of her delicateness and sensitivity, will refuse to the husband of her bosom, and to her son and her daughter, 57 her placenta which comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears; for she will eat them secretly for lack of everything in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates. 58 "If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 then the LORD will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues--great and prolonged plagues--and serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the LORD bring upon you until you are destroyed. 62 You shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of heaven in multitude, because you would not obey the voice of the LORD your God. 63 And it shall be, that just as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess. 64 "Then the LORD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known--wood and stone. 65 And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the LORD will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul. 66 Your life shall hang in doubt before you; you shall fear day and night, and have no assurance of life. 67 In the morning you shall say, "Oh, that it were evening!' And at evening you shall say, "Oh, that it were morning!' because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see. 68 "And the LORD will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, "You shall never see it again.' And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you."

So much scripture and so little understanding.
Perhaps if some criminals slaughter your family and friends you can then piously parrot your verses about it being God's judgement for the nation's sins.
(phewwww!)

My point was only what Paul said about it being wrong to commit evil that good might come. If you have an argument with that, you'll have to take it up with Paul.

This is your original statementThis is tantamount of accusing God of evil that good may come.

My response is simply we can not hold God to mans standards..God can not do Evil..but He can and does do Justice!

Thanks for the flag.

Discretion is the better part of valor. And we're to be as wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Making the statements he did in the manner he did when he did, Rev. Falwell was as wise as a dove and harmless as a serpent. Just my opinion.

Ezekiel 14 22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it. 23 And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord GOD.

So much scripture and so little understanding. Perhaps if some criminals slaughter your family and friends you can then piously parrot your verses about it being God's judgement for the nation's sins.
(phewwww!)

The warnings are in the text whether you, I, or anyone else, like them or not. It's no more a matter of piety to note them than it is to see a big red "flammable" warning sign and take appropriate action. If you've got a beef, take it up with the Author, bucko, rather than whining at the one who's pointing at the warning sign. Or, go ahead: present your non-negotiable demand: "God Bless America!", and see how far it gets you.

And so of course the natural reponse is to blame these horrible acts on God? To say that God is punishing innocent children for the wickedness of others? That's a mighty peculiar vision of God you have.

God allows us to choose our own actions and collectively as a Nation....and as such we enjoy or suffer the consequence of those actions individually and collectively.

God did not cause the planes to fly into the WTC/Pentagon, he is allowing mans natural progression to take place. Otherwise.....why would he have promised to return and save us.

The TRUTH is, God sometimes removed His protection, in the Bible, off of sinning Hebrews-- not Gentiles, who didn't know Him. God said He would spare Sodom if there were even 10 righteous people-- indicating that God's protective hand depends on HIS people, (not those that don't know Him.) Falwell was wrong, and unBiblical, in his blame.

Do you think maybe God knew exactly how many righteous people there were in Sodom?

My response is simply we can not hold God to mans standards..God can not do Evil..but He can and does do Justice!

Look, I didn't write the Bible. I supposed that what was written there were God's standards. Don't you think God would meet His own standards?

Hank

I am going to out myself here.

Several years ago I was a card-carrying Evangelistic Fundamentalist in the largest Church in the US. I led large groups of Church leaders in prayer; I was considered by many to be a lay pastor; I led a group of about 45 servants to the Lord to show others the Way; I was caught up in the wonderful feeling that I was completely correct in all that I thought because the Bible told me so.

Or was it because people that I trusted told me so.

I was already questioning the tenets that I adherred to when I started a Bible Study concerning a sentence by sentence breakdown of Gallatians.

I read every line to mean something different than anyone else in our group.

I really started to listen to what I was being told as 'Gospel'.

I now realize that I was a member of a cult that was harmng my personal relationship with God, the Creator.

I lost all my new friends....good

I gradually regained my old friends that I had driven away with my judgement of them and their values.

I am now desparately trying to regain my soul...yes, that's right, my soul.

Beware those filled with hate while draped in the robes of righteousness.

Now, I will call things as I see them. And I see hate and Religeous self-righteousness pulling this country down. I am too upset to be more erudite on this subject.

It still hurts too much.

The warnings are in the text whether you, I, or anyone else, like them or not. It's no more a matter of piety to note them than it is to see a big red "flammable" warning sign and take appropriate action. If you've got a beef, take it up with the Author, bucko, rather than whining at the one who's pointing at the warning sign.

Perhaps you should go back and review the posts you call yourself responding to because nowhere have I ever complained about, protested or challanged ANYTHING the Bible says.

What I (and others) have objected to is the selective misuse of scriptures by meanspirited self-righteous individuals for their own purposes..Specifically exploiting a horrific crime and tragedy to point their judgemental fingers and assign blame.
Of course they never mention their own personal sins.

Or, go ahead: present your non-negotiable demand: "God Bless America!", and see how far it gets you.

Whoever said this? What are you talking about?

Why I Do Not Say, “God Did Not Cause the Calamity, But He Can Use It for Good.”

Some good stuff... going to print it out for further study.

This thread has me hoping that people are picking up their Bibles (the entire Bible, not just the 'feel good' parts), I pray Pastors are preaching the Word... the entire Word. I pray people are going to church... the REAL Churches that are out there. The Churches that are scripture based, that recognize the innerancy of the Word and don't pick and choose. And I pray people repent of their sins, and not just the big ones.

I can't necessarily say I agree or disagree with the things Falwell and Robertson have said. I'm sure they are speaking the truth as they believe it. I don't how many, if any, drew nearer to Christ because of the words they spoke.

I have been introduced to the work of Piper through FR....He is very good!

Would you like onto the Christian bump list I have?

"I really started to listen to what I was being told as 'Gospel'"

One could say the scales fell from your ears!

Thank you for your post... rest easy.

The warnings are in the text whether you, I, or anyone else, like them or not. It's no more a matter of piety to note them than it is to see a big red "flammable" warning sign and take appropriate action. If you've got a beef, take it up with the Author, bucko, rather than whining at the one who's pointing at the warning sign. Or, go ahead: present your non-negotiable demand: "God Bless America!", and see how far it gets you.

It is interesting that so many people want to deny the message or to kill the messenger...