Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: ET(end tyranny); ArGee
This would clearly be enough to make most Torah Jews skeptical of Jesus as the messiah because of the correlations.

It was the corrupt Jewish leadership, not Jews in general who objected to Christ. The early Church was made up almost exclusively of Jews and Christianity spread like wildfire. Even the Great teacher Gamaliel observed the following:

Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in the Council ... and said, "Men of Israel, take chare what you propose to do with these men. For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody; and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. And he was slain; and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census, and drew away some people after him, he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered. And so in the present case I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action should be of men, it will be overthrown, but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God."

Gamaliel, too, would disagree with you.

The word, Lucifer, literally meant "Light-Bringer" and was used because the Morning Star brings the dawn.

This is the very first thing you've gotten right so far. Unfortunately, you continue and get it wrong:

Nearly 1200 years had passed by the time the English King James Bible was written (in 1611 C.E.). For some reason, its writers chose to leave the Latin word "LUCIFER" untranslated amid the rest of the verse which they translated into English.

Metropolis means "mother city." How sneaky of DC Comics to pull that on us. They should have called it "Mother City." Your argument borders on the absurd. Some Greek and Latin roots are generally recognized without a knowledge of the language such as Photos, Graphos, Eros, Lumenos, Pneuma and Gnosis. To blame the translators for your inability to discern the implications of LUC and IFER is exceedingly shallow. It also shows your ignorance of the process of translation. Certain other words, such as "baptism" are transliterated precisely because they have become ENGLISH words, as was the case with LUCIFER.

The problem though is that Jews KNEW/KNOW that man cannot be God.

Hmmmmm. I wonder if you can explain any of the Theophanies in the OT? Naaa.

Nowhere does the Jewish Bible or Prophets say that the Messiah would be a god or God-like.

You pretend to be well read in the Scriptures. How, then, could you miss any of the Messianic references in the Psalms?

DAVID SAYS: "I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, Thou are My Son, Today I have begotten Thee. Ask of Me and I will surely give the nations as Thine inheritance, and the very ends of the earth as Thy posession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron, Thou shalt shatter them like earthenware. Now therefore, O kings, show discernment; Take warning, O judges of the earth. Worship the Lord with reverence and rejoice with trembling, kiss the Son, lest he become angry and you perish in the way..."

"Kiss the Son" was bowing down before the king by kissing his feet. That passage was from Psalm 2. Here's another from Psalm 110:

The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet."

If you looked at an earlier quote from the end of Matthew 22, you would have noticed that Jesus silenced the Pharisees by asking who David's Lord was.

There are many more passages. One should have been enough to discredit your unsupported assertions. As for the rest of your post, it is rife with logical fallacies, bad history and strange etymology. I hope, for the sake of the lurkers, I have clearly exposed the wolf.

265 posted on 11/10/2001 10:16:40 PM PST by Dataman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 240 | View Replies ]


To: Dataman
Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in the Council ... and said, "Men of Israel, take chare what you propose to do with these men. For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody; and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. And he was slain; and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census, and drew away some people after him, he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered. And so in the present case I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action should be of men, it will be overthrown, but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God."

Gamaliel, too, would disagree with you.

Actually, Gamaliel proves my point, thank you! What he is saying is let God handle it. "for if this plan or action should be of men, it will be overthrown, but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God."

If this plan of action should be of men, it will be overthrown... arrested and executed is uhhh OVERTHROWN! The Messiah is supposed to reign as King...like King David did...

As to the rest of your post. There ARE Messianic prophecies... just not always the ones the church chose to use out of context. There were plenty of alledged messiah's besides the two mentioned by Gamaliel.

Judah the Galilean, about 10 BCE
Theudas
Josephus also mentions a Jew from Egypt
Simon Bar-Kochba, Around 133 CE
Moses of Crete-A large number followed him to a cliff on the coast of Crete, where he commanded them to dive into the water, which was supposed to miraculously part before them. As a consequence a great many trusting souls met their death.
In the early middle ages, with the rise of Islam, (about 700 CE) one Abu 'Isa proclaimed himself Messiah
David Alroy-During the Second Crusade, in the early 12th century, a magician/adventurer
Maimonides reports that in 1172 a "Messiah" arose in Yemen.
In the late 13th century, a Sicilian Kabbalist named Abulafia, or Abraham ben Samuel, began circulating apocalyptic literature. He prophesied Messiah would come in 1295, and considered himself either the Messiah or his messenger.
Around 1500, Asher Lämmlin became the first Ashkenazic Messianic claimant.
David Reubeni was a man of charisma who believed he had a mission to restore the Jews to Eretz Israel. He denied that he was "the Messiah," but was nevertheless hailed as such by many admirers. Among his admirers was a proselyte who took the name Solomon Molko. These two joined forces, but were eventually arrested by the Inquisition. Molko was executed and Reubeni imprisoned.
Shabbetai Tsevi
Jacob Frank was one of several who claimed to be the reincarnation of Shabbetai Tsevi. He preached that the Redemption had not come in 1666 because the Jews were not fully repentant. Frank reasoned (if you can call it reason), that the people had not been repentant because their sinful appetites were not yet satisfied! Frank's "solution" was to indulge every impulse until it was no longer attractive; only then would men be ready to repent! This bizarre theology attracted many followers, but did not convince the Rabbis, who excommunicated Frank in 1765. (This one reminds me of Rasputin and his 'Klyst' movement!)
In modern times, the Lubavitcher Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneersohn has been proclaimed Messiah by certain members of the Chabad movement.

There were plenty of people thinking they were THE messiah.

Since you are oh so much more knowledgable than me, would you please point out the OLD TESTAMENT (Tanakh) verses where it speaks of a messiah that will come, be crucified, then return again, for a 'second attempt' at fulfilling prophecy. Thank you oh so much!

268 posted on 11/11/2001 4:34:20 AM PST by ET(end tyranny)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 265 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson