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To: Chunga
Really? Can you cite a scripture passage backing up your assertion?

Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

1John3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Christianity is based on the notion of man fallen from grace, out of favor with God, unable to help himself, unable to save himself...and God's free gift to man is in the person of Jesus Christ, who died for the sins of the world.

I agree that man does not have the ability to save himself and must look to Christ for that salvation, but that doesn't mean we are not obligated to do the best we can. Do you think that EVERYONE will be saved? I assume not, so in that case, who will be saved and who will not be? Will God just pick at random who is and isn't saved? No, the choices and actions of a person's life will determin if Christ saves them or not, if they do not choose to accept Christ, they will not be saved by him.

The Psalms are full of entreaties by a helpless David to God for deliverance from his enemies. God helped him when he was unable to help himself.

Did David just sit on his behind and expect God to do everything for him? Did he disband his army and put away the weapons? No, he assembled his armies and went into battle. He had faith that if he did the best he could, God would bless his efforts with victory.

My reading of scripture tells me that God is the helper of the helpless.

Yes, but he is not the helper of those too lazy, or too faithless to do what they can.

I ask you, would there be any point in helping someone who doesn't need help? If you're already helping yourself, why do you need God?

Helping your self and doing your best doesn't mean you can do enough by yourself to get it done. God is there to bridge the gap between what we can do and what he wants to be done, but if we refuse to do anything at all and expect God to just hand it to us we will be disapointed, he doesn't want us to be a bunch of spoiled children. I don't expect my little kids to wash their dirty cloths, but I do expect and demand that they put them in the hamper. If they don't help themselves that way, it doesn't get washed.

Those people didn't "give up." They reacted primally to intense heat, the likes of which you cannot imagine.

I don't intend to pass any kind of judgement on those who did jump, I don't know their hearts and minds so I leave it to God to judge them. For ME to jump however, I would have to come to a point where I would have to think that God was not capable of preserving my life, or give up any idea that he would, and I certainly hope I have more faith in God than that.

305 posted on 05/21/2002 10:13:53 AM PDT by Grig
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To: Grig
For ME to jump however, I would have to come to a point where I would have to think that God was not capable of preserving my life, or give up any idea that he would, and I certainly hope I have more faith in God than that.

I understand your point, but maybe these people were just choosing the less painful death, in their minds. Or maybe they thought jumping would be their only chance at survival - or prolong life for a few more moments and allow them to take a few last breaths of air. We can't understand why they did this, but I don't think it was because of a lack of faith in God. God does not guarantee our safety, but he does guarantee He will be with us if we ask.

336 posted on 05/22/2002 6:49:42 AM PDT by Jennifer in Florida
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