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To: AnalogReigns
Your insults don't reflect the love of Christ which you claim to defend by putting down those who honestly understand the Bible differently than you.

Let me start by saying there are many Christians in Calvinist churches, because by and large they preach the Bible and ignore their Calvinist overlay.

Those Calvinists who accept the construct for what it is, a nifty little intellectual game which cannot be allowed to affect their Christian life, will not display the haughty, prideful, "we are the elect" of some of the foolish posters here who say things like "there aren't any non-Calvinists in Heaven."

True Christians of Calvinist background are always embarassed by the viciousness of the construct on innocents and respond with some cop-out along the lines of "well, we can't understand the great mystery of it, yada yada". Well, there are many, many things about God's plan and salvation we can't (and don't need to) understand. But man-made intellectual devices are not in the same category. When a man creates a theological construct that is congruent with the Gospel at some points and not others, that's not a "mystery", that's error.

Calvin's problem was his training as a lawyer (I am also a lawyer and have the same temptations). He was rigorously logical and his problems came about when he connected some of the dots of the Gospel and then extrapolated to his predestination theories which condemn innocents. Jesus didn't do that and that should have set off warning bells for Calvin.

He was in many instances a wise and skillful expositor, but he let his love for logic carry him to unsustainable extremes. Those of his current-day followers who exalt his extrapolations of the Gospel to the level of the Gospel itself make the same errors for the same reasons.

When the construct starts to be taken seriously and placed on a par with the Gospel (or even, as some here, above it), then it is dangerous. It does then lead to prideful, haughty, legalistic behavior. And that is what (and that is all) I condemn.

In short, one can admire the skill with which Calvin assembled his construct (and I do), but when one starts to act on its presuppositions, it becomes dangerous indeed. Just stick to the Gospel, put the construct in your back pocket and forget it for now. If you really mean what you say about evangelism, you don't need it now anyway. Even if you were right about the construct, (given the 'obedient evangelist' gloss) it should make no difference in the way you live. It is only when Calvinists start to behave as though the construct were true and they were the only 'elect' and they can do anything they darn well please and they will still be the 'elect' and everyone else is damned and never had a chance and never deserved a chance at salvation anyway -- that's when the dangerous aspects of the construct raise their not-so-lovely heads.

So, let's read the Gospel together and just keep the construct in your pocket (and show it only to the fellow members of the construct club on Sunday mornings). That way you can congratulate each other on how right you are and not be a stumbling block to those non-believers who might, just might, (to your everlasting surprise) become part of the 'elect'.

224 posted on 11/01/2001 9:01:39 AM PST by winstonchurchill
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To: winstonchurchill
In short, one can admire the skill with which Calvin assembled his construct (and I do), but when one starts to act on its presuppositions, it becomes dangerous indeed. Just stick to the Gospel, put the construct in your back pocket and forget it for now. If you really mean what you say about evangelism, you don't need it now anyway. Even if you were right about the construct, (given the 'obedient evangelist' gloss) it should make no difference in the way you live. It is only when Calvinists start to behave as though the construct were true and they were the only 'elect' and they can do anything they darn well please and they will still be the 'elect' and everyone else is damned and never had a chance and never deserved a chance at salvation anyway -- that's when the dangerous aspects of the construct raise their not-so-lovely heads.

You still misrepresent the position of Calvinists in many ways. Why is it so necessary to villify us in this way? You read what you believe are the logical extensions of Calvinism into our remarks and then try to paint us with a brush of cruelty and un-Christian thought and behavior.

You would be hard-pressed to make that case against the vast and broad majority of Calvinists. You might credibly make such claims against a very very few.

Your class action against Calvinism is frivolous, counselor.
227 posted on 11/01/2001 10:06:37 AM PST by George W. Bush
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To: winstonchurchill; Jerry_M; Uriel1975
And yet, there are a great many Christian's like myself and my wife, who without ever reading a single "Calvinist" word, manage to agree completely with them on the Doctrines of the Bible.

Furthermore, after interacting with them, I find that they are not a gloom and doom hellfire and damnation we are the elect sort, but a refreshingly passionate group of thoughtful Christians.

And yes, for those of you who really are chosen by God and merely act otherwise, you will learn the correct beliefs when you get to Heaven.

240 posted on 11/01/2001 5:12:20 PM PST by CCWoody
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