Posted on 10/25/2001 5:55:24 AM PDT by Coop
Rush: I interviewed you for this very publication back in September of 1993. This June when you stunned the experts by winning the New Jersey Republican gubernatorial primary, we put that interview on my website. It was timeless. In fact, you were talking about the same things then that you’re talking about now: lower taxes, school choice, empowerment. Do you find your message still connecting with New Jersey voters, typically a liberal bunch?
Schundler: Absolutely. The things we’re fighting for are not battles that you’re going to win and then just go along your merry way. The issue is, how does government work best? It works best when it doesn’t take power from people but rather when it empowers people directly. When you cut taxes, and people can keep more of the money they earn and take care of their family in a way that’s best for their family, that obviously is empowering. When you allow people to choose their own doctor or decide what medical procedures they want instead of having an HMO make that decision, which is what medical savings accounts make possible, that is empowering. And when you allow parents to decide what they think is best for their children, whether a program within their local district, a charter school option outside their local district, a private school or home schooling, that is empowering. Obviously, talking about government which empowers the people instead of taking more of their money and more decision-making power from them is what got me elected the first Republican mayor in almost a century in Jersey City. I’m convinced it can not only help me win this election for the governorship of New Jersey, but also is bringing people on to implement these ideas, we can actually create a state that works, where services are better, where there is more opportunity, and where there are also lower taxes. That really should be the object of anyone who is running for office.
Rush: Absolutely. But the thing that amazes me is that you have convinced liberals of this. Liberals are unalterably opposed to the prescriptions you just described; they think that everything ought to come from the government. Here you are talking about empowerment and people doing things themselves. What do you think it is about your message that has gotten through to those people--- because I wish whatever it is you’re doing could be transplanted into conservative Republicans around the country. You’re obviously figured it out.
Schundler: Well, I appreciate your confidence. Frankly, I am not going to be able to get an organization like the teachers’ union to support my education proposals. My education proposals allow educators to act like professionals instead of being treated like wage laborers. I want to empower educateors to do creative things in the classroom, to have all the money that’s appropriated for the education of the children in their classrooms to be in their hands, to allow them to establish standards--- like, for instance, saying that children must behave and that they must do their homework. That kind of empowerment, where educators are allowed to take control would be great for education, but the unions don’t want to allow that kind of freedom for their members. Under this kind of reformed education system, educators would be really working for themselves, rather than being catered to by politically connected unions, politicians, and bureaucrats. You know, unions work for laborers to protect them from management. If you actually allow educators to be management and run the show themselves, the unions are going to find themselves lacking a role. They’re going to have a difficult time persuading people to pay them. So they will fight this, and there’s nothing I can do to change that. It doesn’t matter how I phrase it, they’re going to fight this. But that still leaves us an opportunity to go directly to the teachers and let the teachers know why this would be actually better for them, why they would be able to make more money, why they would be able to take more initiative and fulfill their vision of how a school should operate to best help children. And that’s what I’ve tried to do. I’ve tried to communicate directly to teachers, not through their organizations and unions, so that even though these organized special interest groups can be as opposed to me as ever, I can go straight to the people and let them know where I stand on the issues. The problem we have with politicians is that as soon as interest groups start attacking them, they back off. That’s just plain wrong. They can’t expect that they’ll always persuade the interest groups, but they can persuade the people, they can persuade those who are affected by the policy they are trying to advance.
Rush: You keep using the word: persuasion. It’s a word that highly interests me. What is your theory about how to do it? I mean, many people attempt to persuade by getting into somebody’s face and wagging a finger and saying, “Look you’re wrong. You’ve got to do it a different way.” Other people’s persuasion is a little bit more gentle. The objective, of course, as I hear you speaking, is to get a result, not credit. It doesn’t sound to me like you care who gets credit for changing somebody’s mind for the better. You just want it to happen. So what advice would you give somebody who is trying to persuade someone about a position they disagree with?
Schundler: You want to listen to the person. When they say they disagree with you for a certain reason, they’re actually saying what they’re interested in. Then you can show how what you are proposing actually helps them achieve their goals. Such as making more money. Teachers are probably saying, “Yes, that sounds pretty good.” I’ll say, “Would you like to be able to take initiatives to do what you know would better help children learn, and not be treated as a wage laborer?” I’ll say, “How about the ability to actually re-establish standards in the classroom? For instance, you might say that you will require parents to get more involved. Would you like to be able to create that kid of stipulation?” And they’ll say, “Yes, we’d love that, because parental involvement is critically important.” Then I’ll say, “I want to allow you to do that, to allow you to be the boss, to say, ‘this is how we’re going to do things here,’ and actually have for every parent a budget, with all the dollars raised being committed directly to the education of that child instead of having you just get a small salary as a wage laborer might, representing a small fraction of the money being spent for the education of those children.”
By understanding the interests of the teachers and by being able to help explain to them why what I’m proposing will meet their direct interests, somehow I get them listening to me. Then I’m able to explain how I can actually get the school board to be interested in giving them direct control over dollars and actual decision-making power relative to the running of their classrooms. Then I can also explain why this would be best for children and why it would be best for taxpayers. And if the person is at all open-minded, I find that I am typically able to persuade them that the approach I want to take will work and will be better for almost all concerned. It may not be better for the teachers’ unions, which make their money by charging people to make the conditions of their imprisonment tolerable. I just want to hand them a key so they can get out of hail and walk on their own two feet and do things the way they know would be best.
Rush: So basically you have a set of conclusions that you hope that they arrive at. And you present those circumstances in a way that they actually arrive at the conclusions themselves, rather than think you have forced it down their throats.
Schundler: That’s right, I try to speak directly to the things they’re interested in and try to help them see that what they’re interested in can better be achieved by taking a different approach.
Rush: So the point is, they think that they’ve persuaded themselves rather than having been talked into something by you.
Schundler: I’m not always sure if they’ll think that, but one way or the other my hope is that at the end of the day they say, “Yes, that does sound interesting.” And when people say, “Gee, that does sound interesting, but I don’t know how can we ever get from here to there,” you’ve already got them agreeing that what you want to do is good! It’s just a matter now of helping them see that it’s possible to actually succeed.
Rush: See, you gloss over that, but that’s no mean thing. I mean, the fact is they’re liberals, and because you are a conservative and in large part they think that you don’t have their best interests at heart. At least I found this in my case, you have to spend a whole lot of time at the outset just convincing them that you’re not an ogre before they listen to the specifics. What I’m getting at is you’ve done a tremendous job of establishing personal credibility with these people within a context of real acrimony as American politics exists today. It really is amazing to see. I think that it’s phenomenal what you’ve been able to do.
Schundler: Well, thank you. I have to say by getting around to community meetings and schools in a city the size of Jersey City, you have a chance to talk about education and all sorts of other ideas, and by working real hard you can help people understand the vision you have and how it does in fact work to meet their interests. It’s a little tougher in the governor’s race. It’s not just that you have more people to talk to, but the reality is that especially with the print media everything you say they end up cutting just snippets out of it and frequently turning around what you’re actually trying to say. I find it’s much more difficult to communicate and help people understand what you’re really truing to do when you need to communicate through the print media. One of the things we’re trying to do to kind of overcome that is to spend a lot of time having hour-and-a-half or two-hour meetings with people, where those you have already brought on board reach out to their friends and bring people to hear you. Then you lay out some of the priorities you have and explain why they are important and then you field questions. What frequently happens after that is you have a whole bunch of motivated volunteers who want to help, and in this age of ours with the Internet they can spread the word directly to an e-army. You’re actually able to have a meaningful conversation, and they can have so much more impact than ever before. As I bring on extra volunteers, I may be able to through them reach 20,000 people to actually ring doorbells.
Rush: Exactly. I hear you talk and it’s obvious that you’ve got boundless energy. How do you keep that up, Bret? What is it that inspires and motivates you to pursue this through the end? I don’t know what your ultimate political aims are for your life, but you can go as far as your energy and your enthusiasm will take you, and you clearly have an abundance of it. What is it that drives you?
Schundler: Personally, what I want is to do the best I can to make a positive difference in people’s lives.
Rush: Why? Of all the things you could have done with life, what is it about that? Why did you decide you wanted to make a positive difference in a whole lot of other people’s lives, rather than just you and your immediate family’s?
Schundler: Frankly, I think it was the way I was raised. My dad was a big one for the idea, “To whom much has been given, much is expected.” He thought he was a pretty good dad, he thought my mom was a pretty good mom, and he thought therefore we were indebted to try and use our good upbringing to make a difference in the world. I don’t say this facetiously. We would sit around the dinner table and have conversations and he would say, “Well how are you going to solve the problems in Cambodia?” At the end of the discussion that evening, I would study things and figure it out. The idea he was sharing with us was clearly that you are responsible to make a difference. He’d ask questions like, “How are we going to get the church parking log cleaned up?” You were still responsible for cleaning up the church parking lot and solving the problems of Cambodia. It gave us the sense that you’re responsible under any circumstance. I frankly resented him for a period of time. I guess when I was in my late teens and early twenties because he instilled in us the idea that we had responsibility for all these problems. But it just makes you happier when you become reconciled to who you are. And I finally said to myself, this is who I am and I’m just going to be happy about it, and I’m just going to try to answer the call that I sense myself having. And now I just feel like the luckiest person in the world. So many people are wondering what the purpose and meaning of life is. I think my father and mother instilled in us from the very beginning. They said the purpose of life is to do what you can to make others’ lives better. The idea was, our lives in this world are temporary. But if we can have a meaningful impact that will help others, there will be something of ours that lives on in them and that will be passed on from them to another and ultimately have a meaning that is far greater than any one person.
Rush: Your quest to bring about that meaning takes me to the race for the governorship. Where does that stand? I’ve seen polls showing you anywhere from 9 to 19 points behind your opponent, Jim McGreevey, and the same polls show that the Democrats have a good shot at controlling both houses of the state capital. Now, you were in this same situation in the primary.
Schundler: Right.
Rush: Do you believe these polls? Do they influence the way you conduct the campaign at all?
Schundler: No they don’t. I don’t think they mean anything, either in the primary or the general election. In the primary we were up and we were down, but in the end we won. What’s important is, “Do we have a way of reaching out to people?” Democrats and Independents will decide this election. We’ll do a lot of TV, which reaches everybody. We’ll do a lot of radio broadcasting, and that will reach swing voters, too.
Rush: I remember after the primary was over and you won, immediately both sides, Republicans and Democrats, said that if you had any chance at all, you’re going to have to moderate your conservative views on social, cultural, and fiscal issues. I don’t see you having done that.
Schundler: I’ve always thought there’s nothing immoderate about believing that all life is the same. Someone else may disagree with you, so long as you just respect each other. It is wrong to suggest that others are “immoderate or extreme” for believing differently. But the answer is, No I haven’t. I don’t apologize for believing that every human being has value. I also believe that the way to reach voters who may disagree with me on some issues is to help them appreciate that there’s a lot more they agree with me on and would like to see me succeed in accomplishing than there may be areas where they disagree.
Rush: They just won’t tell a pollster.
Schundler: Well, it’s not that. It’s that until I’ve had a chance to reach out and say, “Hey, I want to do all these different things,” until that’s been done, they don’t know what my agenda is, and they don’t know how I plan to actually get that agenda implemented, or what my record is achieving such things in the past. The issue isn’t, Who’s going to vote for you before they’ve heard about you. The issue is, Who’s going to vote for you after they’ve heard about you and the opponent. When they’ve heard about both of you and understand you and they vote for you, that means they actually do agree with what you want to do.
Rush: When I think of you, I can’t help but think of cyclist Lance Armstrong in a way. Armstrong had two sets of opponents. He had cancer, and he had the other bicyclists as competitors. When Armstrong first learned of his cancer diagnosis, he probably went through the normal human emotions, saying, “I’ve got enough to fight without this. Why me?” Now, if I were you, I would have to overcome a tremendous amount of bitterness. What I mean is, you have to run against the Democrats, which is expected. You’re a Republican. But you also have had to run against your own party organization. I’ve read several news reports about how fellow Republicans are distancing themselves from you. A ten-page “Victory 2001” plan adopted by the New Jersey Senate Republicans urges candidates to tout the tax cuts of the Christine Todd Whitman and Don DiFrancesco gubernatorial years. It even suggests that Republican senatorial candidates link the New Jersey tax cuts with President Bush’s tax rebate checks. But, missing from the highlights of the “Victory 2001” plan is your name! And you’re the victor, you’re the winner, you’re the only reason that the Republicans have a chance at winning the governorship in New Jersey. So not only have you had to do battle with the expected opponents, the Democrats, but you practically have to take up arms against your own party. What is that like? And how have you maintained a decent, positive mental attitude through this?
Schundler: Well, you want to keep your eye on the prize. And it’s really not all about you in the first place. You just have to have tough skin and not let that kind of stuff bother you. Frankly, for an awful lot of Republicans who were supporting the establishment in the primary, I don’t think they ever had any difficulty with me individually. The leaders of that establishment were my opponents, so they were just being loyal to their people who were at the top of the organization.
Rush: Right.
Schundler: Now, those leaders may not have been happy with me challenging them. But having won the primary, I found that most of the workers for those other campaigns have been happy to come on board, and the legislators have been happy to come on board. Don DiFrancesco has perhaps had a harder time coming on board, being upset with me having challenged him in the primary in the first place. But that’s okay. I want to keep focused on what it takes to communicate with the average voter that we can build a better New Jersey and that the Republican party is the way to do that, and particularly that the things I want to implement in terms of policy will get us to where we all want to go. It’s not very attractive if one is angry. You know, Ronald Reagan always showed that he was personally secure with himself, that he was hopeful for the country, that he believed in the people’s good judgment and that if he laid out a good agenda as to how we could get the country moving forward, the people would support him. I want to similarly have confidence that if I lay out a good agenda that will address some serious problems in this state, the people will be there behind me.
Rush: Well, you’re doing that. You’re doing it in a subtle way, and you’re doing it in this interview. You just said the words. It’s not about you. You’re in essence letting the people of the state of New Jersey know that the fact that their state is going to be a great state is up to them! You are, in fact, establishing a high level of expectation that you have of them, because your theory obviously is that they as human beings will rise to that level.
Schundler: That’s exactly right. I think the job of a leader is to take a banner and to raise it high so that it becomes a rallying point for the people. When you have a policy debate, people reading about it in a newspaper may be frustrated if they don’t see a leader who’s fighting for what they believe in. But when you hold that banner high and say, “Here I am, this is where we rally,” they come to you. Then you end up having an enormous number of people who are backing you as you fight for what they already believe in. You don’t have to persuade that group. You already have them with you. Then you make the case, and argue for all those who believe like you do, and you have a public debate with some people on the other side. You’re advancing a certain set of ideas. And if your ideas in fact really reflect what works in the real world, then the ideologues on the other side who are pushing an idea despite its not really working in experience will lose the debate. For example, I talk about the fact that we don’t need to spend more money on education to improve it. That’s what all experience shows. The teachers’ union and my opponent in this race are going to take the position that the solution to our education problems is just taxing people more and throwing more money at the schools. But our people reject that idea, because there is nothing that we can see in any experience in this state that supports it.
Rush: Exactly. Speaking of the teachers’ unions, how mobilized against you are they? I know you’re a strong supporter of vouchers.
Schundler: Yes. I think the unions are solidly against me, but I don’t think they have the support of their own membership. Some members may just follow their lead. But I think an awful lot of teachers have their ears open, they’re listening to my message and I think they’re going to vote for me.
Rush: Fabulous.
Schundler: I have to say this, though. If I lose, to me that just means you work harder. Maybe you’re not the candidate the next time. But the causes are still as valiant. You try to figure out what you can do to continue to advance the cause. If the issue is how do you make sure that every child can get a great education, the fact that you may lose an election shouldn’t make you say, “Well, I don’t care if kids get a great education.” It should make you try to work harder to win the next election. Or you continue to organize people even if you have legislators who are going to fight you on it. You still can organize people and sometimes win a battle even when you’re not in office. Look at Martin Luther King. He never held an office. He had more impact on this country than almost anybody else in this last half century. Ronald Reagan is someone who did hold office and used the position well. But there are lots of people who held office and actually took the country in the wrong direction. Bill Clinton being an example. Of course, losing an election shouldn’t be your goal. Your goal should be to advance the policy.
Rush: It is clear that a political party has one objective to win elections. But a political movement has as its objective to remain steadfast to principles. And you’re saying if losing an election advances the principle, then that’s the price.
Schundler: That’s right. If you remember, Abraham Lincoln lost that Senate race against Stephen Douglas, but Lincoln ultimately was able to get ideas on the table about how we should deal with issues like slavery and other issues that were before America in that era, and he ultimately became President. And to think that the Republican party had only been formed in 1854. It was okay that he lost an election. He got ideas on the table, he advanced popular understanding that there was a better way to deal with things and ultimately he was elected and was able to take the country leaps forward, through having stood fast on the foundation of principle.
Rush: You don’t seem to have many doubts about the way you’re handling the campaign or where it’s going.
Schundler: I don’t. I do believe that the press has over the course of the summer at least, almost tried to make it hard by not reporting on some of the policy proposals that we’ve laid out there.
Rush: For example?
Schundler: We had Governor Ridge from Pennsylvania come into Camden and we laid out some ideas for public school reform, citing the example of a charter school there which is doing an awesome job helping very low income children succeed. One of the things they have at that charter school is to require the parents to come for training as to how they can work with their children. That would be a wonderful thing to say: Here’s a model of how, by helping parents better help their children learn in concert with their classroom teachers, we can dramatically improve test scores and give disadvantaged children an opportunity to succeed in life. But they didn’t say a word about it in the press. They’d rather have a story, “Jim McGreevey says you’re a bad person,” and then ask you to respond. I don’t care what Jim McGreevey says. I want to be able to get the people to hear that there is a way to help children and it is time for all of us to get behind good ideas and get them implemented.
Rush: That is exactly right. One of the problems I’ve got going on with Washington is that we’re trying to appease and get along with these Democrats to show them that we mean them no harm and to show the American people that we want to get along. All is does is set us back. That’s why I so admire what you’re doing. You’re just focusing on who you are and what you do, what you believe, and I have to believe that that’s going to triumph. But you had Jesse “The Mind Is a Terrible Thing to Waste” Ventura. He was in town stumping for ---what’s the guy’s name, Schluter?
Schundler: Bill Schluter.
Rush: ---who is running as an Independent. Do you think he might siphon off enough votes?
Schundler: No I don’t. I think he’ll be a total non-entity. The reality is that normally an Independent might to well if both the Democrats and Republicans are acting like two peas in a pod, trying to keep all the interest groups happy and both being mutually politically correct. But when I’m out there explaining that I’m actually willing to stand up for the things not just I but most people believe in, there’s really no interest in a third-party candidacy. So his campaign has not been able to achieve any support, or for that matter raise any dollars. And I think it’s going to be a non-factor. What I think is interesting is two days ago, I was taking the press around Jersey City showing how we were not only able to redevelop our waterfront---we have more first-class office space under construction in Jersey City now than any other city in America---but I also took them for a drive in the inner-city neighborhoods so I could show how we are also able to transform the inner-city neighborhoods, where there are more after-school programs for kids, affordable housing for people, programs in place that have dramatically reduced crime so people are safer in every neighborhood. The Democrats actually went out and hired protesters! I think if I’m here in a city with 250,000 people, 70 percent of whom are registered Democrats, if they can’t find a couple of Democrats to protest us on their own without having to pay them, I think that’s the best endorsement going.
Rush: Right!
Schundler: These guys had to import protesters from outside the city and pay them to try to make it seem like there wasn’t local support for my candidacy. That was a wonderful example of the fact that these guys just don’t have the people’s support.
Rush: Is the press short-changing you? Are they just ignoring you as a candidate?
Schundler: No. We’re getting coverage every day. But they like to focus on abortion and guns, as opposed to any other subject. I think their goal, frankly, is to keep these issues boiling because they’re not happy to have someone like me on the other side who’s proven my ability to get votes from Democrats, African Americans, Hispanics. However, with all that said, I believe the issues I’m advancing, things like school choice, like getting taxes down, some of the proposals I’ve had which would create new business investment in the inner cities, these ideas are inherently attractive to inner city voters and African American, Hispanic voters. And, you know, one of my favorites is just trying to get the tolls off the parkway. So I believe as we get to the part of the campaign where I’m paying for the media I’ll be able to directly communicate with the people without the newspapers. When I’m actually advertising, directly communicating to voters, then the message gets out. And I believe people will respond to the message. In Jersey City, I got 70 percent of the Hispanic vote and I got 45% of the African American vote. I don’t know if I’ll get those high percentages in this state, but I do believe I will get far more votes from the African American community and from th
This article was scanned compliments of GEC. Many thanks to you, sir!
I have a good feeling about this race, and I am now of the mind that Earley is also going to win.
I might suggest you send an E-mail to the President, Tom Davis (R-VA), and VA Governor Jim Gilmore (head of RNC). To better answer your question, check out the below link on this very topic.
Don't play games with me, young man/young lady! [Indignantly] Give it up, or quit starting rumors! :-p
I'm also glad that you took the liberty of bolding some of the text.
There was only one answer in this interview where I thought Bret rambled a bit while he danced, but it illustrates one thing about Rush.
For a guy who doesn't do interviews for a living (and granted this was preaching to the choir), he knows what the right questions are to ask.
Even though the questions were asked in a friendly, almost leading way, they still required thought to answer and Rush was definitely asking because he wanted to know what the answers were.
Well, that's good to hear. I do respect your opinion. I like Earley's chances better than Schundler's, though both could certainly win. But their chances would be greatly improved if the President would help out. But we have to face the reality that both could easily lose.
Earley took a severe financial blow with Sep. 11th, losing a Presidential and separate VP fundraiser. And now both Earley and Schundler are potentially hurt financially and definitely hurt politically by the Prez bowing out of the Governor's dinner.
I agree! I do hope a good amount of undecided voters tune in, because I think Bret will excel. If there's a running thread, please bump me once or twice since I'll be busy until later in the evening. Thanks!
You guys must be good at getting out the vote.
Likely voter polls are supposed to compensate for that...
But I don't think they do.
That said, let me put it in completely unscientific terms. Schundler gives you a case of the warm fuzzies even when Mcgreevey tries to paste a 38 Smith and Wesson accross his forehead. McGreevey gives you a case of the cold slimyies even when he's cuddling a baby (I call it Clinton slease without the charm). I'd say this has the makings of a 15 point Schundler win.
I truly appreciate all the hard work you Schundler Army folks are doing. Keep me fired up!!
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