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Leery of Vaccine, Some Parents Hold 'Chickenpox Parties'
Fox News ^ | 10/19/2001

Posted on 10/19/2001 10:16:17 AM PDT by CholeraJoe

Edited on 04/22/2004 12:31:26 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

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To: cajungirl
Cajungirl, I am sorry, I disagree greatly with your assumption that parents get their children this vaccine for any othe rreason than convience. Here are the facts, 13 children have died with connections to this vaccine, vacinnes in and of themselves also carry long term potential risks that are often not known within early stages of their use. Secondly the chicken pox vacinne is only 70% effective AT BEST, the manufacture and doctors cannot and do not guarantee lifetime immunity from the disease even if you get the shot, they have no idea if/when you will need a booster if you get this shot.

Chicken pox is FAR MORE devastating among adults than children in terms of its effects. So knowing this, what parent in their right mind is going to innoculate a child for a non deadly disease, that once caught one is immune from for life, for a vaccine for it that is at most 70% effective, is not guaranteed for life (increasing the liklihood that they may contract the disease in adult hood and suffer far more devastating effects from it). No parent is their right minds would do this, unless they just don't want to deal with a sick child and having to miss work for a week.

There is no justification for this vaccine, it is a joke. Nothing more than a way for drug companies to make some money by pandering to self centered and/or uneducated parents. If you have a healthy child, getting this shot is dumb, no if ands or buts about it. If you child reaches puberty and has not yet contracted the disease, then conisidering it may be reasonable, or if your child has autoimmune or other diseases it may be worth while, but for the vast majority of children this shot is pointless, and can only be justified by selfishness of parents.

121 posted on 10/22/2001 11:00:13 AM PDT by HamiltonJay
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To: George from New England
Hepatitus B I don't know too much about it, as far as effectiveness. Hepatitus is a very low risk of contraction, so from that perspective one can question the need for it, but at least it is a disease that can cause permanent harm or death in a large number of cases...

Chicken Pox vaccinne for the masses is stupid from a public policy and health perspective. It would be good for those who have children have certain types of illnesses which make them more likely to suffer death or other dibilitating effects from an infection, or for adults who managed somehow not to be infected in youth. But innoculating every child born with this is the height of stupidity from a public policy perspective.

122 posted on 10/22/2001 11:04:41 AM PDT by HamiltonJay
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To: HamiltonJay; TomB
This post (121) and others point up the seemingly intractable problem confronting modern medical science. Newly developed drugs and vaccines have the potential to include side effects that will affect an unacceptably large percentage of patients given them but nevertheless with an incidence rate too low or a time lag in appearance (vaccines particularly) too long for the FDA testing and approval process to detect them. There seems to be no other way to detect these effects other than to put the drug on the market and let the patients to whom it is administered over the requisite number of years serve as Guinea pigs. As for me, I don't want to be a Guinea pig so I would only resort to newly developed drugs as an absolutely last resort where there was nothing to lose.
123 posted on 10/22/2001 11:37:32 AM PDT by Aurelius
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To: TomB
The cost of "modern medicine"s de facto use of the public as Guinea pigs? It was estimated years ago that on the order of 30,000 people die annually from proper use, under a physician's direction, of prescription drugs. I am sure it is more now; the population is up, reliance on drugs is up, but safety is not.

It will be years before the facts are in on vaccinations.

124 posted on 10/22/2001 12:48:03 PM PDT by Aurelius
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To: Aurelius
It will be years before the facts are in on vaccinations.

Here are the facts:


125 posted on 10/23/2001 8:42:01 AM PDT by TomB
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To: TomB
What is your point? Those are facts, they are not the as-yet unknown facts that of the sort I was clearly referring to. Re the measles vaccine. Are there possible long term side effects from the vaccine? Did exposure to measles confer protection against other morbid conditions that the vaccine does not? There seems to be reason to believe the answer is yes to both questions. Chicken-pox is, I believe a less serious disease than measles, the same questions can be asked about that vaccine.

You obsess on the fact that with a vaccine that is effective against a given disease, we can eliminate that disease. And you ignore the question, are there unintended undesirable consequences to such a program.

126 posted on 10/23/2001 9:30:40 AM PDT by Aurelius
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To: Aurelius
You obsess on the fact that with a vaccine that is effective against a given disease, we can eliminate that disease. And you ignore the question, are there unintended undesirable consequences to such a program.

I'm not obsessing on anything. I'm merely stating the fact that vaccines and modern medicine save millions of lives every year around the world as the average life expectancy continues to go up.

It is you who are obsessing on some unknown side effects which might cause a problem sometime in the future. I posted numbers that prove that there are a whole lot of people living now who would have died without vaccines. That is indisputable.

If you choose to forego modern medicine in favor of "alternative" practices, that is your decision. But to imply that your way is better, that is just plain wrong.

127 posted on 10/23/2001 10:01:31 AM PDT by TomB
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To: TomB
I am responding to the last two paragraphs of you post 127. I am not obsessing on anything. Neither am I talking about unknown side effects. I am talking about very specific side effects, which are suspected to result from the measles vaccine, just for example. Almost certainly smallpox vaccination, discovered 200 years ago, has resulted in a net saving of life of considerable magnitude. It is unlikely that the magnitude of its benefit is duplicated by many other of the vaccines.

As for "forgoing modern medicine in favor of 'alternative' practices" that is so formulated, again, to load the arguement in your favor. You speak as if "modern medicne" were some monolithic structure of uniform quality and whose developments in the directions they took were inevitable. I disagree with all three characterizations. Rather than "alternative practices" which you seem to want to regard as lying outside of your holy "modern medicine" I would seek alternative practices,with just as much right to be called "modern medicine", but lacking the rather serious flaws that I believe affect certain asppects of what passes as modern medicine.

128 posted on 10/23/2001 10:41:34 AM PDT by Aurelius
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To: TomB
If you think that modern medicine is nothing but positively beneficial, check this out.

Doctors'strike in Israel may be good for health.

This is a report on the second such strike. The doctors also struck 30 some years ago with much the same result.

129 posted on 10/23/2001 10:54:54 AM PDT by Aurelius
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To: TomB
More along the same line. Unfortunately I can't document these.

I read of a study recently (personally, I am skeptical of such "studies" but report for what it is worth) which applied regression analysis to local death rate and local concentration, per capita, of both doctors and nurses. The study found that death rate correlated positively with the concentration of doctors, but negatively with that of nurses.

Much better known is the recent report on mortality due to medical accidents, incompetence and malpractice. The number of deaths due to these causes was put between 70,000 and 100,000 per year. If you take the lower figure and add the (low) estimate of 30,000 deaths a year from prescription drugs, we can put at a minimum of 100,000 deaths per year, the number of deaths that result from application of "modern medicine", or "medical misadventure". My almanac lists only 4 causes of death that numbered more than 100,000 victims(in 1996). These are: heart disease, cancer, cerebrovascular diseases, and pulmonary diseases. Accidents (medical ones presumably not included) came next at a little over 90,000. Thus, "medical misadventure" is the 5th leading cause of death in the U.S. Since the rate of death from all causes is just under 1%, this means that more than one death in every 25 is from "medical misadventure". Lest you jump to the conclusion that nevertheless more lives are saved than lost, remember the example of the doctors strike in Israel. Some people shouldn't go on strike. There is a similar story about the traffic cops in Brussels. They once went on strike and the people quickly saw that traffic flowed better without them. These cops were smarter than the Israeli doctors; they never struck again.

130 posted on 10/23/2001 11:17:57 AM PDT by Aurelius
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To: TomB
Re my post 129. Please note, all four responses to the article reported a similar phenomenon in other locations. That is, physicians withholding their services resulting in a drop in the death rate.
131 posted on 10/23/2001 2:37:30 PM PDT by Aurelius
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To: Aurelius; aruanan; Kozak; OWK
If you think that modern medicine is nothing but positively beneficial, check this out.

Quit putting words in my mouth, I never said it was "nothing but positively beneficial". I'm only saying modern medicine, properly practiced, is responsible for a longer life and a vast reduction in disease.

Your story about declining deaths in Israel has been quoted by almostevery chiropractor and alternative health practicioner I've seen. But even the article notes that the stats are only for a brief period. The obvious answer is that many treatments and procedures are put off, only to be done at a later time. For one example, let's say a person is diagnosed with an aortic aneurism. It must be operated on or it will eventually burst and the patient will die. However that kind of surgery is very dangerous, and the patient may be lost. However, if the procedure is not done, the patient will die soon eventually. So there are risky procedures being done every day, and, unfortunately, deaths.

This point is proven further by the fact that the article says that people were still going to their family doctors and ERs. But most dangerous procedures were not done.

The study found that death rate correlated positively with the concentration of doctors, but negatively with that of nurses.

The answer to this is that sick people tend to congregate where the doctors are, and sick people are more likely to die

132 posted on 10/23/2001 3:44:04 PM PDT by TomB
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To: TomB
You are just full of $#it. You are hopeless.
133 posted on 10/23/2001 3:49:10 PM PDT by Aurelius
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I had chicken pox when I was 6.I had to be hospitalized. The very idea that some parent would want this for their child is disgusting.
134 posted on 10/23/2001 3:59:03 PM PDT by thathamiltonwoman
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To: TomB
You can always create "alternative explanations" they aren't worth $#it unless you have some evidence to support them. You don't. I am giving up on you, you are immune to enlightenment, if not to anything else.
135 posted on 10/23/2001 3:59:35 PM PDT by Aurelius
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To: TomB
One last question. Are you a physician yourself. If you are that would explain a lot.

By the way you didn't address the issue of "medical misadventure" being the 5th highest cause of death in the US.

136 posted on 10/23/2001 4:03:12 PM PDT by Aurelius
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To: CholeraJoe
Jeesh....what do they do in lieu of the Salk vaccine, get polio first?
137 posted on 10/23/2001 4:04:59 PM PDT by MadelineZapeezda
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To: CholeraJoe
Gee-how dumb. I guess that makes Connie a Terrorist. I wonder how the parents will feel when their child gets brain damage or chickenpox pneumonitis from the little gift their child was given ?? BTW, is this supposed to infer that chicken pox will provide protection from smallpox ? I hear yomama osama will be giving smallpox parties.Maybe Connie can join him for that (sarcasm off)
138 posted on 10/23/2001 4:18:19 PM PDT by contrarian
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To: TomB
"...sick people tend to congregate where the doctors are and sick people are more likely to die."

That is so lame that even you have to realize it is lame. I no longer think you are a physician; you must work for an advertising firm that works for the AMA.

139 posted on 10/23/2001 9:03:13 PM PDT by Aurelius
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To: MadelineZapeezda
Polio was never much of a threat due to its very low incidence. If Franklin Dumb$#it Roosevelt hadn't suffered from it, it would never have gotten the attention it did. The theory that contaminated Salk vaccine gave rise to AIDS remains a plausible explanation, at least for those who believe AIDS is a communicable disease, the latter being a a highly questionable hypothesis.
140 posted on 10/23/2001 10:24:08 PM PDT by Aurelius
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