Posted on 10/17/2001 12:18:58 PM PDT by junebug54
My intent was to understand and clarify..not to hit :>)
I think Jesus really wasnt talking about things with that young man..but asking him to make Him (Jesus) the most important thing in his life..Jesus knew what the young man valued most...it is sort of like" you can not serve both God and mammon"..or "where your treasure is that is where your heart will be".
The woman at the well received very much the same message actually
John4 22 "" You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 ""But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 ""God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.''
We must worship him in Spirit and in truth..He must so fill us...be so much the desire of our heart..he must so be the first thing in our lives that the very "living waters" He spoke of flow out of our bellies..(John 7:38)
God honors a seeking heart and He loves it when we meditate on His word!
I'd like to see the Neilson ratings and compare to midnight mass from St. Peter's
He most certainly did. Behold:
President and Mrs. Bush, I want to say a personal word on behalf of many people. Thank you, Mr. President, for calling this Day of Prayer and Remembrance. We needed it at this time.
We come together today to affirm our conviction that God cares for us, whatever our ethnic, religious or political background may be.
The Bible says that He’s "the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles."
No matter how hard we try words simply cannot express the horror, the shock, and the revulsion we all feel over what took place in this nation on Tuesday morning. September 11 will go down in our history as a day to remember.
Today we say to those who masterminded this cruel plot, and to those who carried it out, that the spirit of this nation will not be defeated by their twisted and diabolical schemes. Some day those responsible will be brought to justice, as President Bush and our Congress have so forcefully stated.
But today, we especially come together in this service to confess our need of God. We've always needed God from the very beginning of this nation, but today we need Him especially. We're facing a new kind of enemy. We're involved in a new kind of warfare and we need the help of the Spirit of God. The Bible's words are our hope: "God is our refuge and strength, an ever present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear, though the earth give way and the mountains fall into the heart of the sea" (Psalm 46:1,2, NIV).
But how do we understand something like this? Why does God allow evil like this to take place? Perhaps that is what you are asking now. You may even be angry at God. I want to assure you that God understands these feelings that you may have.
We've seen so much on our television, heard on our radio, stories that bring tears to our eyes and make us all feel a sense of anger. But God can be trusted, even when life seems at its darkest.
But what are some of the lessons we can learn?
First, we are reminded of the mystery and reality of evil.
I have been asked hundreds of times in my life why God allows tragedy and suffering. I have to confess that I really do not know the answer totally, even to my own satisfaction. I have to accept, by faith, that God is sovereign, and He’s a God of love and mercy and compassion in the midst of suffering. The Bible says that God is not the author of evil. It speaks of evil as a "mystery." In 2 Thessalonians 2:7 it talks about the mystery of iniquity. The Old Testament prophet Jeremiah said, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" He asked that question, "Who can understand it?" And that’s one reason we each need God in our lives.
The lesson of this event is not only about the mystery of iniquity and evil, but secondly, it’s a lesson about our need for each other.
What an example New York and Washington have been to the world these past few days! None of us will ever forget the pictures of our courageous firefighters and police, many of whom have lost friends and colleagues, or the hundreds of people attending or standing patiently in line to donate blood. A tragedy like this could have torn our country apart, but instead it has united us and we’ve become a family. So those perpetrators who took this on to tear us apart, it has worked the other way. It’s backlashed, it’s backfired. We are more united than ever before. I think this was exemplified in a very moving way when the members of our Congress stood shoulder to shoulder the other day and sang, "God Bless America."
Finally, difficult as it may be for us to see right now -- this event can give a message of hope -- hope for the present, and hope for the future.
Yes, there is hope. There’s hope for the present because I believe the stage has already been set for a new spirit in our nation.
One of the things we desperately need is a spiritual renewal in this country. We need a spiritual revival in America. And God has told us in His Word, time after time, that we are to repent of our sins and we're to turn to Him and He will bless us in a new way.
But, there is also hope for the future because of God's promises. As a Christian, I have hope, not just for this life, but for heaven and the life to come. And many of those people who died this past week are in heaven right now, and they wouldn't want to come back. It's so glorious and so wonderful. And that's the hope for all of us who put our faith in God. I pray that you will have this hope in your heart.
This event reminds us of the brevity and the uncertainty of life. We never know when we too will be called into eternity. I doubt if even one of those people who got on those planes, or walked into the World Trade Center or the Pentagon last Tuesday morning thought it would be the last day of their lives. It didn't occur to them. And that's why each of us needs to face our own spiritual need and commit ourselves to God and His will now.
Here in this majestic National Cathedral we see all around us symbols of the Cross. For the Christian, I'm speaking for the Christian now, the Cross tells us that God understands our sin and our suffering, for He took upon Himself in the person of Jesus Christ our sins and our suffering. And from the Cross, God declares, "I love you. I know the heartaches and the sorrows and the pains that you feel. But I love you."
The story does not end with the Cross, for Easter points us beyond the tragedy of the Cross to the empty tomb. It tells us that there is hope for eternal life, for Christ has conquered evil and death, and hell. Yes, there is hope.
I've become an old man now and I've preached all over the world and the older I get the more I cling to that hope that I started with many years ago and proclaimed it in many languages to many parts of the world.
Several years ago at the National Prayer Breakfast here in Washington, Ambassador Andrew Young (who had just gone through the tragic death of his wife), closed his talk with a quote from the old hymn, "How Firm a Foundation ... ."
We all watched in horror as planes crashed into the steel and glass of the World Trade Center. Those majestic towers, built on solid foundations, were examples of the prosperity and creativity of America. When damaged, those buildings eventually plummeted to the ground, imploding in upon themselves. Yet, underneath the debris, is a foundation that was not destroyed. Therein lies the truth of that old hymn that Andrew Young quoted, "How Firm a Foundation ... ." Yes, our nation has been attacked, buildings destroyed, lives lost.
But now we have a choice: whether to implode and disintegrate emotionally and spiritually as a people and a nation -- or, whether we choose to become stronger through all of this struggle -- to rebuild on a solid foundation. And I believe that we are in the process of starting to rebuild on that foundation. That foundation is our trust in God. That's what this service is all about and in that faith we have the strength to endure something as difficult and horrendous as what we have experienced this week.
This has been a terrible week with many tears but also has been a week of great faith. Churches all across the country have called prayer meetings and today is a day that they are celebrating not only in this country but in many parts of the world.
And in the words of that familiar hymn that Andrew Young quoted -- it says:
"Fear not, I am with thee; O be not dismayed,
For I am thy God, and will still give thee aid;
I'll strengthen thee, help thee, and cause thee to stand,
Upheld by my righteous, omnipotent hand."
My prayer today is that we will feel the loving arms of God wrapped around us, and will know in our hearts that He will never forsake us as we trust in Him.
We also know that God is going to give wisdom and courage and strength to the President and those around him. And this is going to be a day that we will remember as a day of victory.
May God bless you all.
If I sent you a letter with a substance that caused you to get sick, would I be doing something evil?
It depends on several factors. First -- as you should have been able to "ferret out" in that last post (#110), it depends on what your meaning of "evil" is -- in terms of how you're using it. There are different meanings (as we see from Webster's Dictionary and as we see from the "theological side" of things, too).
If you were to mean "unrighteousness" -- for the meaning of evil, then we would go to the next item upon which it depends, in order to answer that question. Would your actions have been intentional for the purpose of causing harm? If that was the case, if it was a moral evil that you were intending, then by definition, that would be unrighteousness and an evil action in that context.
However, if you were to send something to me with some harmful substance in it, and did not do so with intent or moral evil in mind (let's say by not knowing that it was in there), then this would not be unrighteousness on your part. It would be "evil" (with another definition of "evil") in terms of "trouble and calamity" on my part -- but not unrighteousness on your part. It wouldn't be the moral evil and/or unrighteousness.
BUT, as is always the problem here -- when talking about God -- which all those other comments in post #110 should have made clear, God is not defined by human actions and understanding and moral character. So, to define God in terms of "evil" -- on the basis of "human actions" is to subvert the meaning and character of God. God defines His own character, and not in comparison to us.
Very simply put, God commits no moral evil at all -- none whatsoever. And He never commits unrighteousness. By His own word, that particular definition of evil never pertains to God -- which is why it is rendered as "calamity" in the other translations -- thereby leading to a more accurate understanding of what is being said there, in Scripture.
Since people attach a wrong meaning to the word "evil" in regards to God in that particular verse -- it does not lend itself to the proper understanding. And that's exactly the type of subversion that you're trying to do here. But, it won't work because there are ample commentators and other Bible scholars who make it very clear that God is never the author of evil (in the definition of unrighteousness or moral evil). That is never the case.
You're continued desire and insistence to show that God is the author of unrighteousness -- simply shows your own misunderstanding of Scripture, and who know what other heresies or errors.
If that is the case, couldn't it be said that the Gospel has now been preached to all nations?
It's like I was saying earlier. I guess it would depend upon how many in each country would make it qualify for that to be so. If you had one in a place of one million -- would that do it? You've got those sorts of questions.
And then, from what I understand from those who study the issue of the Gospel getting out to the world -- I understand that there are vast and large tracts of the world where people have never even heard of the name of Jesus, much less understanding the Gospel. So, someone is not going with a "consistent story" here.
I've got a guess...
a. Woody Harrelson
b. Adam Corrola
Well, I don't think Missler even mentioned them. You might check it out, though, and see what he said. It's well worth it.
However, MOST (not all) such groups can speak a national language of one sort or another in addition to their native tribal tongue. The translations likely covered all those national languages.
In any case, the fulfillment is certainly closer if not done. One of the most current ways to fulfill that Scripture is through cassette tape versions of Scripture and witness. Cheap players and tapes are then distributed. Last I read, there are still more than several hundred languages without a witness.
My 23 years in the RC Church left me confused about the doctrine of salvation by grace. I didn't know where faith in Christ's crucifixion and resurrection ended and the requirements of the church began. The timetables for taking communion, what to eat and when, the classification and rating of various sins, changes in doctrine and pronouncements of infallibility...
Week after week my priest gave shallow interpretations of God's Word and focused most of the homily on appeals to give more money.
From the Catholic Church I came to appreciate God's awesome greatness, but I never was introduced to gift of grace not linked to works (Gal 4:9). I never had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ until years later.
Thomas, I know that there are saved Catholics. It is not my intent to judge anyone's salvation status, but I know that God promises that we will know our brothers by their fruit (Mt 7:18-22). My whole family is strictly Catholic. I pray for them because I know that there is no fruit being brought into God's Kingdom on their behalf. Fruit bears seed that grows and brings more fruit.
From my experience, the Catholic Church has led many into a false sense of eternal security.
Again, I am sorry to disagree with you, but I did not intend to be disagreeable.
Russ
It is my intent to cause you pain. I do this with premeditation. What would you call this, an evil act or a calamity that I caused?
I believe it's clear from what I said. That would be a moral evil. You see, as a person (and according to what Romans says [for example 3:23]), you do not have the same attributes as God does. In your case, as a person who needs Salvation, you are capable of committing "moral evil" -- which is unrighteousness. At the same time, you have the ability to cause calamity (of the same type that God does, on the one hand), in terms of not being unrighteous -- or, on the other hand -- you have the ability to commit evil acts of the morally depraved kind, as opposed to calamity. You can do either. God cannot.
And so, you see, in God's case -- because of His character and who He is (as He has described Himself, and as He is the definition by which all else is determined and measured) -- God cannot commit any moral evil -- at all -- and under no circumstances. God does not commit any unrighteous acts.
Thus -- once again -- and after quoting over 100 years of Bible teachers and commentators, this (as you quoted in Isaiah 45:7) is not evil in the definition that people want to use "evil" (i.e., "unrighteousness" or "moral evil"). This is -- for God -- calamity and woe -- not moral evil.
But, you still seem intent on attributing to God, the situation of evil (as defined as moral evil or unrighteousness). In that case, you're the one who is spreading misunderstanding and heresy. God is not like you -- fortunately for us.
Out of your own mouth I will prove you wrong and show that it is you and all your commentators who are not understanding "evil" and denying the Sovereignty of God. I hope you will be gracious to enough to let me gather my thoughts and material.
Out of your own mouth I will prove you wrong and show that it is you and all your commentators who are not understanding "evil" and denying the Sovereignty of God. I hope you will be gracious to enough to let me gather my thoughts and material.
Well, at least I'll be "in good company". You will be attempting to prove something against historical and Evangelical Christianity. I wouldn't want to be in that position. :-)
Of course, you can take all the time you wish. And keep in mind, better minds and scholars than me (and I would venture better than you) have been all through this subject. It's clear that neither those commentators and scholars from historic and Evengelical Christianity nor me -- are denying God's sovereignty.
But, we'll see...
----------
I really suspect that the problem here is that you wish to bring God down to your own level of understanding. God has already told us who He is, and you don't seem to like the manner in which He has told you. You should be like Job. At that time when God spoke to him.
Job 40:1-5
1 Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said:
2 "Shall the one who contends with the Almighty
correct Him? He who rebukes God, let him answer it."
3 Then Job answered the Lord and said:
4 "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay
my hand over my mouth.
5 Once I have spoken, but I will not answer; Yes,
twice, but I will proceed no further."
Thus, it seems that you have to come up with some "formula" which fits your own limited mind (rather than God's). Mind you, that's not a negative comment about "your mind" -- but rather, saying that no one is capable of coming to a complete and full understanding of God, from within themselves, and which can be contained in our own minds. HOWEVER, we are able to *received God's revelation* of who He is, and believe Him -- in what He says to us.
Listen to what God says, and proceed no further -- like Job, and God will bless you.
I'm going to include that last section of Job, since it's God speaking to Job, instructing him.
Job 38
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: 2 "Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge? 3 Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8 "Or who shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth and issued from the womb; 9 When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band; 10 When I fixed My limit for it, And set bars and doors; 11 When I said, 'This far you may come, but no farther, And here your proud waves must stop!'
12 "Have you commanded the morning since your days began, And caused the dawn to know its place, 13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it? 14 It takes on form like clay under a seal, And stands out like a garment. 15 From the wicked their light is withheld, And the upraised arm is broken. 16 "Have you entered the springs of the sea? Or have you walked in search of the depths? 17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death? 18 Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth? Tell Me, if you know all this. 19 "Where is the way to the dwelling of light? And darkness, where is its place, 20 That you may take it to its territory, That you may know the paths to its home? 21 Do you know it, because you were born then, Or because the number of your days is great? 22 "Have you entered the treasury of snow, Or have you seen the treasury of hail, 23 Which I have reserved for the time of trouble, For the day of battle and war? 24 By what way is light diffused, Or the east wind scattered over the earth?
25 "Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water, Or a path for the thunderbolt, 26 To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one, A wilderness in which there is no man; 27 To satisfy the desolate waste, And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass? 28 Has the rain a father? Or who has begotten the drops of dew? 29 From whose womb comes the ice? And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth? 30 The waters harden like stone, And the surface of the deep is frozen. 31 "Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades, Or loose the belt of Orion? 32 Can you bring out Mazzaroth F56 in its season? Or can you guide the Great Bear with its cubs? 33 Do you know the ordinances of the heavens? Can you set their dominion over the earth? 34 "Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, That an abundance of water may cover you? 35 Can you send out lightnings, that they may go, And say to you, 'Here we are!'? 36 Who has put wisdom in the mind? Or who has given understanding to the heart? 37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom? Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven, 38 When the dust hardens in clumps, And the clods cling together? 39 "Can you hunt the prey for the lion, Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions, 40 When they crouch in their dens, Or lurk in their lairs to lie in wait? 41 Who provides food for the raven, When its young ones cry to God, And wander about for lack of food?
Job 39
1 "Do you know the time when the wild mountain goats bear young? Or can you mark when the deer gives birth? 2 Can you number the months that they fulfill? Or do you know the time when they bear young? 3 They bow down, They bring forth their young, They deliver their offspring. 4 Their young ones are healthy, They grow strong with grain; They depart and do not return to them. 5 "Who set the wild donkey free? Who loosed the bonds of the onager, 6 Whose home I have made the wilderness, And the barren land his dwelling? 7 He scorns the tumult of the city; He does not heed the shouts of the driver. 8 The range of the mountains is his pasture, And he searches after every green thing. 9 "Will the wild ox be willing to serve you? Will he bed by your manger? 10 Can you bind the wild ox in the furrow with ropes? Or will he plow the valleys behind you? 11 Will you trust him because his strength is great? Or will you leave your labor to him? 12 Will you trust him to bring home your grain, And gather it to your threshing floor?
13 "The wings of the ostrich wave proudly, But are her wings and pinions like the kindly stork's? 14 For she leaves her eggs on the ground, And warms them in the dust; 15 She forgets that a foot may crush them, Or that a wild beast may break them. 16 She treats her young harshly, as though they were not hers; Her labor is in vain, without concern, 17 Because God deprived her of wisdom, And did not endow her with understanding. 18 When she lifts herself on high, She scorns the horse and its rider.
19 "Have you given the horse strength? Have you clothed his neck with thunder? 20 Can you frighten him like a locust? His majestic snorting strikes terror. 21 He paws in the valley, and rejoices in his strength; He gallops into the clash of arms. 22 He mocks at fear, and is not frightened; Nor does he turn back from the sword. 23 The quiver rattles against him, The glittering spear and javelin. 24 He devours the distance with fierceness and rage; Nor does he come to a halt because the trumpet has sounded. 25 At the blast of the trumpet he says, 'Aha!' He smells the battle from afar, The thunder of captains and shouting.
26 "Does the hawk fly by your wisdom, And spread its wings toward the south? 27 Does the eagle mount up at your command, And make its nest on high? 28 On the rocks it dwells and resides, On the crag of the rock and the stronghold. 29 From there it spies out the prey; Its eyes observe from afar. 30 Its young ones suck up blood; And where the slain are, there it is."
Job 40
1 Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said: 2 "Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? He who rebukes God, let him answer it." 3 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 4 "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth. 5 Once I have spoken, but I will not answer; Yes, twice, but I will proceed no further."
6 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: 7 "Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me: 8 "Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified? 9 Have you an arm like God? Or can you thunder with a voice like His? 10 Then adorn yourself with majesty and splendor, And array yourself with glory and beauty. 11 Disperse the rage of your wrath; Look on everyone who is proud, and humble him. 12 Look on everyone who is proud, and bring him low; Tread down the wicked in their place. 13 Hide them in the dust together, Bind their faces in hidden darkness. 14 Then I will also confess to you That your own right hand can save you.
15 "Look now at the behemoth, which I made along with you; He eats grass like an ox. 16 See now, his strength is in his hips, And his power is in his stomach muscles. 17 He moves his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit. 18 His bones are like beams of bronze, His ribs like bars of iron. 19 He is the first of the ways of God; Only He who made him can bring near His sword. 20 Surely the mountains yield food for him, And all the beasts of the field play there. 21 He lies under the lotus trees, In a covert of reeds and marsh. 22 The lotus trees cover him with their shade; The willows by the brook surround him. 23 Indeed the river may rage, Yet he is not disturbed; He is confident, though the Jordan gushes into his mouth, 24 Though he takes it in his eyes, Or one pierces his nose with a snare.
Job 41
1 "Can you draw out Leviathan with a hook, Or snare his tongue with a line which you lower? 2 Can you put a reed through his nose, Or pierce his jaw with a hook? 3 Will he make many supplications to you? Will he speak softly to you? 4 Will he make a covenant with you? Will you take him as a servant forever? 5 Will you play with him as with a bird, Or will you leash him for your maidens? 6 Will your companions make a banquet of him? Will they apportion him among the merchants? 7 Can you fill his skin with harpoons, Or his head with fishing spears? 8 Lay your hand on him; Remember the battle-- Never do it again! 9 Indeed, any hope of overcoming him is false; Shall one not be overwhelmed at the sight of him? 10 No one is so fierce that he would dare stir him up. Who then is able to stand against Me?
11 Who has preceded Me, that I should pay him? Everything under heaven is Mine. 12 "I will not conceal his limbs, His mighty power, or his graceful proportions. 13 Who can remove his outer coat? Who can approach him with a double bridle? 14 Who can open the doors of his face, With his terrible teeth all around? 15 His rows of scales are his pride, Shut up tightly as with a seal; 16 One is so near another That no air can come between them; 17 They are joined one to another, They stick together and cannot be parted. 18 His sneezings flash forth light, And his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. 19 Out of his mouth go burning lights; Sparks of fire shoot out. 20 Smoke goes out of his nostrils, As from a boiling pot and burning rushes. 21 His breath kindles coals, And a flame goes out of his mouth. 22 Strength dwells in his neck, And sorrow dances before him. 23 The folds of his flesh are joined together; They are firm on him and cannot be moved. 24 His heart is as hard as stone, Even as hard as the lower millstone. 25 When he raises himself up, the mighty are afraid; Because of his crashings they are beside themselves. 26 Though the sword reaches him, it cannot avail; Nor does spear, dart, or javelin. 27 He regards iron as straw, And bronze as rotten wood. 28 The arrow cannot make him flee; Slingstones become like stubble to him. 29 Darts are regarded as straw; He laughs at the threat of javelins. 30 His undersides are like sharp potsherds; He spreads pointed marks in the mire. 31 He makes the deep boil like a pot; He makes the sea like a pot of ointment. 32 He leaves a shining wake behind him; One would think the deep had white hair. 33 On earth there is nothing like him, Which is made without fear. 34 He beholds every high thing; He is king over all the children of pride."
Job 42
1 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 2 "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You. 3 You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. 4 Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.' 5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."
BTW, while you are wondering where you entered into unBiblical beliefs consider this: You wouldn't deny Judas' betrayal of Christ as a "morally evil act" would you?
Oh yes, me and the rest of Evangelical Christianity are sitting on the edge of our seats... about to be instructed for the first time -- about our errors... :-o Don't you wish....
And, in regards to Judas, there's no doubt -- a morally evil act. And there's no question where it came from either... Satan.
But where you are going with that is not going to work. God does not become "unrighteous" in His actions and in His plans by whatever evil and sinful individuals do on their own (by their own responsibility). The Bible is clear on that. The Bible makes it clear (for another type of similar answer) that God used evil nations around Israel to do His will in punishing Israel for their national sins. AND THEN on top of that -- God then punished those nations for what they did to Israel. The Apostle Paul talks about that, too.
And so, in the process of that -- there is no unrighteousness attributed to God. It's not going to work to go down that pathway. That's why I say that you want to bring God down to your level of understanding -- rather than accepting His revealed Word to us.
Funny that you said this...
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