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To: Marduk
It should be obvious then that school prayer is not unconstituional because it does not involve an act of Conbgress establiushing a state religion or prohibiting a religion.

I understand the sentiments behind wanting to permit prayer in school (prayers said aloud, I'm referring to here, because anyone can pray silently anywhere; that's not prohibited anywhere yet, AFAIK.)

And yet ... and yet .... What kind of prayer? Which G*d? I think everyone who is part of any of the mainstream Judeo-Christian denominations would not want their children to be led in a prayer to Allah, or Buddha, or the Supreme Mother of the Vegetarian Universe (or whoever the heck it is those Vegans pray to). Nor would parents who believe in those gods want their children led in a prayer to the Judeo-Christian G*d.

Further, any prayer that is generic enough to not favor one religion over another is probably pretty worthless as far as prayer goes.

That is why I believe prayer does not belong in the government schools.
6 posted on 10/17/2001 2:37:46 AM PDT by sonjay
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To: sonjay
"And yet ... and yet .... What kind of prayer? Which G*d? I think everyone who is part of any of the mainstream Judeo-Christian denominations would not want their children to be led in a prayer to Allah, or Buddha, or the Supreme Mother of the Vegetarian Universe (or whoever the heck it is those Vegans pray to). Nor would parents who believe in those gods want their children led in a prayer to the Judeo-Christian G*d. "

That's a valid concern. But what I am saying is that it is not unconstitutional. That's the only thing that I am saying. Maybe school prayer is not such a good idea for the reasons you gave but it is not unconstitutional.

I would also counter-argue that religion is an important part of human development. If the schools are forced to be atheist that is also offensive to religious people. The schools are being forced to be functionally atheist and that can be just as offensive as the things that you mentioned.

10 posted on 10/17/2001 2:56:10 AM PDT by Marduk
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To: sonjay
I'm not really bothered about prayer in school so much, I think it should be a local issue. If you live in a predominantly Hindu area and the teachers are Hindi then I would expect that if they decided prayers in Indian were something they wanted, it should be legal. Just don't try to force my kid to participate. I now have the option of allowing them to express their religious beliefs without my kid participating, or encouraging my kid to privately say Christian prayers at the same time or move my kid to another school if I am that unhappy with it. If I ran a school, I personally wouldn't have organized prayers but I would allow time for prayers if it was a part of the children's religeous beliefs.
12 posted on 10/17/2001 3:05:02 AM PDT by DCBurgess58
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To: sonjay
What kind of prayer? Which G*d? I think everyone who is part of any of the mainstream Judeo-Christian denominations would not want their children to be led in a prayer to Allah, or Buddha, or the Supreme Mother of the Vegetarian Universe (or whoever the heck it is those Vegans pray to).

Not quite. I am a Christian, yet when I see people of other faiths expressing their faith outwardly (through dress, mannerisms, sayings, etc.), I am in no way offended. When they attempt to proselytize me, I'm in no way offended (that's their faith in action, and what kind of believer would you be if you didn't attempt to convice others? Isn't that what we do with political philosophy?). When I hear the names of other gods, I am in no way offended.

I teach my son the exact same thing. He knows who his Savior is, and no amount of saying, "In the name of Allah the Mericiful" or any other deity is going to change that.

If a school has a spoken prayer including such terms as "God, we pray for Your guidance and Your will to be done today. Amen." then there is no way one can deduce which god has been invoked (although I will unashamedly admit that there is only ONE true God). Such prayers do not endorse any religion whatsoever, and to say that such a prayer does makes one a religiophobe. The mere mention of the name of God makes the leftists and some libertarians alike heads spin like that little girl on The Exorcist.

Yet we have those who have a hissy-fit over any mention of God! Those who truly live the Word know that they cannot through any type of force compel men to become Christians. It's just not possible (I'll leave out the serious spiritual proofs of this). Nor do I believe that a true Christian would want to compel a man to believe as he does. For example, show me one example out of the Word where Christ Himself physically forced anyone to follow Him. Since we are not greater than He, then, who are we to compel when Our Lord didn't?

We try to persuade and persuade only.

Then you have people here at FR who, for whatever reason, flock to threads that are Christian in theme. I find more non-believers there posting and making fun of believers! Now, if I happened to find a Jewish-theme thread posted here, I may click on it and read. I may ask questions. But I would in no way disrespect anyone. This is not being PC, this is being courteous and respectful. So, this begs the question of my fellow Freepers: Why post on a thread based on a Christian theme in which you do not believe in the first place? Kind of a waste of time, isn't it?

What's wrong with atheists either teaching their children to ignore prayers at stadiums, graduations, etc? What about atheists ignoring the same themselves? Libertarians talk about force a lot. And for the most part, I agree with them on this issue. However, there is blatant hyprocrisy involved when I am forced to sit silently by and pray to myself, or, cannot tell someone of the Lord Jesus! My freedom of speech has been tossed out of the window, yet I don't hear cries of "foul" from the libertarian brothers. What up with that? An atheist libertarian can try all day to convince me that there is no God, yet he or she will only be met by my one saying: I disagree. Besides, isn't atheism a faith unto itself? I mean, to believe that there is no God is to believe in something, right? Belief is the essence of faith (Heb. 11:1).

Lastly, I would be one who will go to bat for faiths other than Christianity out of defense of my own faith. When I stand by and allow one faith to be squashed, I know mine is next in line.


14 posted on 10/17/2001 3:21:01 AM PDT by rdb3
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To: sonjay
I understand the sentiments behind wanting to permit prayer in school (prayers said aloud, I'm referring to here, because anyone can pray silently anywhere; that's not prohibited anywhere yet, AFAIK.) And yet ... and yet .... What kind of prayer? Which G*d? I think everyone who is part of any of the mainstream Judeo-Christian denominations would not want their children to be led in a prayer to Allah, or Buddha, or the Supreme Mother of the Vegetarian Universe (or whoever the heck it is those Vegans pray to). Nor would parents who believe in those gods want their children led in a prayer to the Judeo-Christian G*d. Further, any prayer that is generic enough to not favor one religion over another is probably pretty worthless as far as prayer goes. That is why I believe prayer does not belong in the government schools.

And yet the government has not the authority to restrict such prayer, as has been pointed out quite clearly by previous posters. The only possible solution is to dispense not with the speech, but with the schools themselves. Government schools are being used as excuses to indoctrinate our youth into _many_ beliefs that the citizenry find more objectionable than religeon. I could care less if my children hear someone pray, even if it is to Satan or Barney the Purple Dinosaur; I like to think I would teach them enough at home that they could respect others rights to believe in foolishness without feeling compelled to _accept_ those beliefs. I am far more concerned about the creeping communism and anti-theism that is so common in all our educational institutions. In addition, the schools are failing in their mission to teach the basics, such as reading and math.

FWIW, I was raised as a Jehova's Witness, though I am basically agnostic, as an adult. I went to a private school, where I was often required to listen to the prayers or other religeous observations of others who did not subscribe to my own beliefs of the time. I was unharmed. In fact, I learned to stand up for myself and my difference without shame. My peers respected my differences, though they were often curious. We all benefitted from it.

I grow so sick listening to the pathetic whimpers of the weaklings who squander the blessings of our liberties so hard won by our ancestors, those who are so quick to shut their mouths for fear of offending, or to try to squelch those with whom they disagree. People who cringe at the expression of beliefs counter to their own, who would silence all rather than allow all to speak, disgust me like no other sort of fools. Such people neither respect nor deserve the liberties given to them, and work incessantly to deprive the rest of us of ours.

I am tired of living with cattle. I am tired of seeing the strong and brave bend over backwards to appease weaklings and cowards. When will we all stand up and _demand_ the rights we all know we are due? We have _not_ the right to silence others; we have the right _not_ to be silenced! When will we stop twisting in the wind, weighing the silly proposition of who should and should not be permitted to speak, when the truth is plain: _all_ may speak.

Those who cannot tolerate the speach of others with whom they disagree, who would eschew their own right to free speech as a counter, in preference for the simpler solution of clubbing their opponants into silence with the brute force of the law, are _barbarians_! It is time we stood up and _said_ so!

Thraka

56 posted on 10/19/2001 12:24:41 AM PDT by Thraka
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