[dep]

i'm actually intereted in getting information as to what bullet diameter is best for an unmodified mini-30. .308 or .311?

as to pistols, i can provide several answers: .45. .45. .45.

dep

[Storm Orphan]

I'm interested in the 7.62 question, too.

[dbbeebs]

checkout rec guns FAQ at:REC GUNS FAQ

[ex82nd]

I carry a ruger p-90 in .45 loaded with 185 silver tip hollow points

[Critter]

Odd as it seems, .223 55gr fmj does more damage than the AK47 7.62X39.

DOD did some major studies on this. I think I have some bookmarks. I'll have to look. Otherwise, you'll find a wealth of info at ar15.com. There are lots of very knowlegable people that frequent that forum.

[LibWhacker]

Here's an oldie but goodie if you're interested in shotguns: Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition

[rockfish59]

there's lots of wicked ammo out there. you can even make your own 'evil stuff'. a 'full metal jacket' was adopted by the geneva convention to 'minimize damage' when shooting the enemy. it is illegal to use when hunting. 'black talon' is a max damage ammo. 'corbon' is another powerhouse. hollow points and soft points are made to expand and do maximum damage. i feel that all cops should carry .41 or .44 magnums & full auto weapons to fight the likes of the 2 moron bank robbers in L.A.

if you remember the zapruder film, you will see the effects of a high powered rifle and why snipers are so feared, and carlos hathcock was so devastating as a sniper in vietnam.

[Travis McGee]

Cover, movement, shot placement and functional weapon reliability are 10X more critical than caliber.

That said, I like 5.56mm. It works from zero to several hundred yards, as far as I need. It goes through kevlar (oops!) With a quick finger it lays out close range lead like nobody's business. For its small size it makes a big wound. And you can carry twice as much 5.56mm as 7.62NATO/.308.

[185JHP]

When Jim Cirillo was on the NYPD stakeout squad he took out three adversaries by putting two .38 bullets in each goblin, shooting a six-shot revolver - it's the gunfighting version of the real estate saying - "bullet placement, bullet placement, bullet placement." That said, evidence complied by both the "jello junkies" and the "morgue monsters" seem to indicate common sense is right - "wide is good, fast is good, heavy is good."

[JackelopeBreeder]

Oh goody, one of my favorite subjects. Up front, you can't go wrong with .40 S&W. It's a good round and will stop anything with two legs if your shot placement is good. (A .22 between the ears beats a .44 magnum in the ankle any day.)

First let's look at full metal jacket. Just a lead core with (usually) a copper jacket surrounding it. Typical military ammo. It goes straight through the target in pretty much the same shape it entered. Its primary purpose is to wound. Why? Because a wounded guy needs more attention and resources than a dead guy. Dead guys just go to graves registration snd on to the cemetery. Wounded guys require medics, medevacs, surgery, physical therapy and rehabilitation. Manpower and money intensive; puts far more strain on the enemy's resources.

Next would come soft points; the tip of the bullet is not jacketed and expands on impact, thus making a bigger hole in the target.

Hollow points -- depending on configuration, they leave a much larger hole than their actual size. A Federal Hydra-Shock in .45 can leave a hole you could pass a watermelon through with ease. Not too long ago, I popped a gallon jug of water with a Hydra-Shock. The jug disappeared. The 2X10 plank it was sitting on was sheared by the shockwave like I had passed a circular saw through it -- note the round passed about six inches above the plank. Definitely evil and I buy them in bulk. Glasers are another good choice -- high velocity hollow points with the hollow filled with small shot -- they hit like a small grenade and doctors do not like them at all. (Don't get me started on the joys of nylon flechette rounds -- they don't show on x-rays.)

Armor piercing rounds are rare outside of military calibers. These usually have a hardened core (tungsten or depleted uranium) which defeats mild steel plate. Modern armor plate requires more sophisticated ammo.

My personal advice is a .40 or .45 sidearm with hollow points or Glasers. Match it up with a pump action shotgun loaded with alternating rounds of slug and 00 buck. The slug disrupts body armor and the buckshot sends the target off to the morgue -- or major reconstructive surgery and several months of jello as a dietary staple.

[VRWC_Member428]

Bang!

[VRWC_Member428]

Don Myers:

In the CCW course I took, the instructor gave a brief run-down of the types of ammunition. JakelopeBreeder already mentioned the various types, so I'll just say that for sheer stopping force, hollow points all the way. I've shot 1-gall milk jugs filled with water with .357 magnum hollow points. While they don't actually disappear, the water inside does 'explode' out, and there is a large tear to the rear of the jug where the bullet exited.

Another nice thing about hollow points is that they are safer. Not safer in a Joselyn Elders (remember her?) kind of way, but safer in that they deliver most of their energy when they hit a body. That way even if the bullet goes through, it won't go through much else. However, if you shot that same body with a full metal jacket, or possibly even a soft point, it would go through, and could also go through several layers of drywall into adjoining rooms (and even other houses)

One thing to note, however, is that if you miss with a hollow point, it won't expand once it hits drywall. The hole just gets plugged, and the bullet basically becomes a soft point. To give you an idea of how dangerous it can be when you miss, I once bought a sheet of drywall for testing purposes. I cut it into several small sections, and set them all up one behind the other. When I shot it with a .38 special wadcutter, the bullet embedded itself in the 13th (thirteenth) layer of drywall. Just think what a .357 or .44 Magnum cartridge would have done!

As far as brands, I haven't been shooting long enough, nor have I experamented much with different loads. For personal protection. I prefer to use Cor-Bon ammunition. As far as which calliber works best, all I know is that the military developed the .45 ACP round for the purpose of killing humans. So I figure that they know a lot about killing people, so that's what I want to get. (I still don't have enough money to buy the Kimber Compact CDP I want.)

---

RockFish59:

there's lots of wicked ammo out there. you can even make your own 'evil stuff'.

I would recommend against brewing home ammunition. In the CCW class I took, the instructor (a gun store salseman, not a cop) told us that brewing home loads for home defense is a bad idea. The reason is because if you end up going to court for some reason, the lawyer who is against you will try to convince a jury of 12 morons who have probably never shot a gun that you made those bullets for the sole purpose of killing somebody.

While hollow points are also designed to kill somebody, there is a very easy out if it comes to court. All you have to say is "That's what the gun store guy sold me." That weakens the case the other lawyer may try to make that you tried to use extra deadly ammunition to kill his client's relative.

The instructor used a good illustration to demonstrate this. There was this guy who re-loaded his ammunition. What he had in his gun was ball-ammo which he used at the gun range for making holes in paper targets. (Ball ammo is abut the least effective type of slug to kill somebody with) When this guy got home, he found his neighbor's teenage kid in his house robbing the place. He also had a gun. And so, the man shot this armed hooligan with the same ball plinking ammo which was still in his gun. Subsequently, a lawyer tried to make the case that he loaded his gun with this home brewed load for the purpose of killing his next door neighbor's kid.

So, just use manufactured cartridges for defense ammunition. You simply have to say that "This is what the gun store guy sold me."

[Shooter 2.5]

All of the urban legends aside, I suggest that you take a look at Evan Marshall's book Street Stoppers. Evan Marshall is a police officer, who for 15+ years, has gathered data from acutual gun fights and reported on ammunition that was effective with one shot stops [OSS]. To balance out what he said, here is the link to a web page that seems to take issue on his reports:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

Between the two reports, I think you can find some realistic information past shooting phone books and water jugs.

I carry a Springfield Armory V10 Ultra-Compact 1911A1 with Federal 165 grain Hyda-Shoks in a Galco Royal Guard holster under a large t-shirt. My Draw time is 1.6 seconds hitting a styrofoam plate at 20 feet.

[hchutch]

Go to www.evanmarshall.com and get his books. They're expensive, but you'll know which loads have proved themselves on the streets.

[Piquaboy]

They need to make safer bullets. This is per Jocelyn Elders.

[Reelect President Dubya]

The primary thing to know about the 7.62x39 round is that it was designed to be controllaable at full-automatic fire, meaning it was deliberately designed to be less powerful than a conventional rifle cartridge.

For reasonable comparison of the relative power of different cartridges, use the standard physics equation for the energy of a projectile: E = 1/2 mv^2, where E is kinetic energy, m is the mass of the projectile and v is its velocity.

For instance, to compare the 7.62x39 with the .308 (both of which are nominally 30 caliber), you need to know the weights of the projectiles and their muzzle velocities.

The standar 7.62x39 cartridge propels a 115-grain bullet at approximately 2300 fps at the muzzle.

A standard .308 cartridge propels a 148-grain bullet at a approximately 2800 fps at the muzzle.

Disregarding units, we can plug this ballistic data into the E = 1/2 mv^2 equation for relative powers of the rounds:

7.62x39: E = 1/2 x (115) x (2300) x (2300) = 304175000

.308: E = 1/2 x (148) x (2800) x (2800) = 580160000

Dividing 304175000 by 580160000 = .524, meaning that the 7.62x39 round is 52% as powerful as the .308 at the muzzle.

[Centurion2000]

bump for later

[Don Myers]

This post is not on subject, however, it does involve firearms.

"Wednesday - Oct. 17, 2001 Program of the House of Representatives meets at 10:00 a.m.

"A motion to go to conference on the National Defense Authoriztion Act for FY 2002, H.R.2586 is expected."

Hope everybody contacted their respective Representatives during the past week and a half.

[Redcloak]

A handy way to get info on a given caliber is to simply enter the caliber and the word "ballistics" into a search engine. Entering ""7.62 x 39mm" ballistics" into Google gives this result. As you can see, a number of sites have tables of ballistics data. (Google also suggests an alternate spelling of the phrase "7.62 x 39mm" with still more results.) Entering 2 calibers will usually find someone with comparative data.

[spunkets]

7.62 X 39...Roughly equal to 30-30 in energy. The bullets have a higher BC though and fly flatter.

Full Metal Jacket and Armor Piercing...same shape. delivers less energy to the target, tends to go right through soft targets. AP to punch through armour.

Hollow points are spires with a very small hollow at the tip, they have the highest BC and thus allow the best accuracy. They can deliver more energy to the target if that's what they were designed for, else they are like FMJ.

Soft points are expanding bullets that deliver the most energy to soft targets. Unlike the 30-30, the 7.62X39 can use high BC spire points giving them much more freedom from the effects of drag and wind.