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To: JohnnyM
Do you disagree that Paul relegates women to second class status?

He does not relgate women to 2nd class status.

1 Timothy 2:

1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,
2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.
7 For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
8 I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;
9 also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire
10 but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion.
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness.
12 I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
15 Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.


Maybe you don't think this is second class, but I do.
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Do you disagree that Paul says Bishops must be married, etc.?

He says no such thing

1 Timothy 3:

1 The saying is sure: If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task. 2 Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher,
3 no drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and no lover of money.
4 He must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way;

Modern language nuance???
6,896 posted on 11/08/2001 7:49:35 AM PST by OLD REGGIE
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To: OLD REGGIE
10 but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion. 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. 12 I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty. Maybe you don't think this is second class, but I do.

Second class the way Pat Ireland would define it, yes. This is their role in God's kingdom. If they love God they wouldn't think of it being 2nd class at all.

6,900 posted on 11/08/2001 7:52:27 AM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: OLD REGGIE
Well gee, did Adam get created first? Did God not make the man head of the House? Didn't God say, while cursing Israel, that they would be a nation led by women? Gee, I guess either God is wrong to say such demeaning things or He is just giving us humans our roles in which to live a more productive, Godly, orderly and spiritual existance.
He said a bishop should be the husband of one wife (ie. not 2 wives, 3 wives or 4 wives etc) however it does not say that a Bishop MUST be a husband at all. We need to not rely on the exact wording of one translation but also on good judgement as to what the writer is trying to teach us because very clearly, Paul states in earlier writings that he prefer men stay single so they are givin soley to God because being married requires responsibility to wife and our Lord. Not always easy, trust me!
6,903 posted on 11/08/2001 7:58:41 AM PST by NATE4"ONE NATION"
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To: OLD REGGIE
1 Timothy 3:

1 The saying is sure: If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task. 2 Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,
temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher, 3 no drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and no lover of money.
4 He must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way;


The emphasis on the scripture is not on the fact that he is married, but on the fact that he has one wife. He can't be married to multiple women. Why wouldn't Paul just say, a bishop needs to be married?? Because that was not the issue. The bishop, if married, must be married to one wife. Note that Paul never married. Would you say he was unable to be a bishop or church elder??? The same applies for the children. If he has children they must be respectful and well behaved.

On the issue of women. You are reading to much feminism in to it. It says women should be submissive. Which means they should realize that the man is the head of the household, just like an employee is submissive to the his boss. This is not a license for the husband to treat his wife like a slave either. Men and women have roles. The man is the head and the woman submissive is to the head, just like the body of Christ is submissive to the Christ, the head.

Understand also that this is the Word of God. This is not Paul speaking, but God himself. So if you say Paul is misoginistic
JM
6,929 posted on 11/08/2001 8:51:07 AM PST by JohnnyM
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