Replies

Exactly. The RCC teaches and the "faithful" do what they damned please. Your smug reply "Church Teaches", to Becky concerning adoration/veneration/worship of Mary falls into this same category. It is what the people do that is significant, not what "we teach". That is nothing but a disingenuous copout.

There are faithful Catholics who adhere to the teachings, there are lax Catholics who adhere to most of them and there are CINO's who do what they please. You seem to be focusing on the CINO's. I will agree with you there are many of them. BTW the Church doesn’t change its teachings just because its unpopular. That would be a Protestant phenomena.

The RCC doesn't "teach" that Mary should be "worshipped"

Glad we can finally agree on something.

yet hundreds of millions of people do just that. Something is wrong with this picture.

Not true. Since you don't acknowledge the difference between veneration and worship this comment does not surprise me.

In anticipation of your demand for me to "prove it", I have a list. Just give me your shipping address and be prepared to pay the shipping charges.

37,615 posted on 03/30/2002 12:13:09 PM PST by pegleg

37,619 posted on 03/30/2002 12:16:54 PM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain

37,620 posted on 03/30/2002 12:16:55 PM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain

Word games. Semantics. Worship=Veneration period. You can't prove millions of catholics don't worship Mary unless you read hearts. So stop the hypocrisy.

37,622 posted on 03/30/2002 12:19:41 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant

Word games. Semantics. Worship=Veneration period. You can't prove millions of catholics don't worship Mary unless you read hearts. So stop the hypocrisy.

37,623 posted on 03/30/2002 12:19:51 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant

Word games. Semantics. Worship=Veneration period. You can't prove millions of catholics don't worship Mary unless you read hearts. So stop the hypocrisy.

37,624 posted on 03/30/2002 12:20:00 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant

Word games. Semantics. Worship=Veneration period. You can't prove millions of catholics don't worship Mary unless you read hearts. So stop the hypocrisy.

37,625 posted on 03/30/2002 12:20:34 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant

(OR) Does this sound like Mary asked Jesus to perform a miracle or, for that matter, to take any action at all, or does it sound like she was telling him "they have no wine"?

At Mary’s request Jesus performed his first miracle.

It requires an active imagination to turn a statement into a request. "They have no wine" is not "make some wine", or "please", or "perform a miracle."
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(OR) His mother deferred to Jesus, not the reverse as you wish to imagine.

Yes Mary deferred to Jesus. I don’t imagine this in the reverse. Why would you think I do?

Probably because you said it was at her request. If it were at her request it would have been the case of Jesus deferring to Mary.
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(OR) Her "Do whatever he tells you" is her contrite way of acknowledging Jesus as her leader.

I never said anything different. Do you not think this is sound advice?

Of course it is sound advice. It certainly is no more than that. Do you think this makes her the mediator?
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(OR) Of course, Paul is urging Timothy that prayers be offered for people who are currently living. It isn't even hinted that anyone but living people are asked to pray for living people.

If this is your interpretation for “all men” I disagree.

Whatever?
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(OR) Do you care to expound on this? This is a role for Mary?

The Catholic teaching is this verse prophetically foreshadows Mary and Jesus.

(OR) Do you still claim this is about Mary??

Don’t remember quoting Genesis 3:16.

You quoted Genesis 3:15 as a "proof" to my question; "Where in Scripture is it shown that Mary has a role beyond that of mother? " I posted Genesis 3:16 and asked if you really thought it referred to Mary. I, of course, thought the reference to children (plural), and the "desire shall be for your huisband" might cause you to rethink your statement.

Genesis 3:
15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."
16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."

As a matter of fact, I don't believe the RCC teaches Genesis 3 foreshadows Mary at all. See the introduction from Douay-Rheims:

The serpent's craft. The fall of our first parents. Their punishment. The promise of a Redeemer. Jesus yes. Mary no.

There are verses; however, which the RCC does teach foreshadows Christ and His mother:

Psalm 69 Douay-Rheims

Christ in his passion declareth the greatness of his sufferings, and the malice of his persecutors the Jews; and foretelleth their reprobation.

Psalm 69:8 RSV(Psalm 68:9 in the Douay-Rheims) I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mother's sons.

The RCC apparently does teach that the mother of Jesus will have sons????
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(OR)Are you forgetting, or unaware, that Jesus's brothers didn't believe in him until the ressurection?

The only “brothers” that Jesus had were fellow believers.

His mother's sons were what???
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(OR) Are you forgetting, or unaware, that John (the "one whom Jesus loved") was the only apostle present at the crucifiction?

I know this.

(OR)Jesus loved John, John was there, his mother was there, his brothers not only weren't there but they didn't believe in him . It was a natural for Jesus to ask John to take care of his mother.

You are missing the significance of this passage. Jesus told John to “Behold thy mother”. Unless you believe Mary was John’s mother, why would he say this?

I believe it is you who is missing the significance of this passage. I repeat; His brothers didn't believe in him, they were'nt there, Mary was there, John (The favorite of Jesus) was there just as Jesus knew he would be, and Jesus entrusted his mother to John to ensure her well being.
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(OR) A question for you: Where was Peter through all this?

Probably in the upper room with the rest of the Apostles.

Come now, you can do better than that. I can see you jumping out of your skin if Peter was the one who was there and the one to whom Jesus had entrusted his mother. As a matter of fact, if this happened the NC's might even be more inclined to accept the special role of Peter. As it was, the ascendancy of Jesus's brother James after the ressurection, and the role of Peter as one of the equal apostles belies the whole story of "primacy".

37,628 posted on 03/30/2002 12:30:36 PM PST by OLD REGGIE

You can't prove anything unless you can read hearts and know for certainty the interior disposition of a soul. Since I know for a fact that is beyond your capabilities, you can keep your so called proof and file it under misinformation.

It isn't necessary to read minds in order to arrive at a reasonable conclusion. If the birth rate in "Catholic" Italy is among the lowest in the western world I will assume "Catholic" Italians practice birth control. It is up to you to convince me that Italians as well as Catholics in the United States are either sterile or have invented a new method of "natural rythm". This one, one that works. It sure as hell didn't work in my day.

37,629 posted on 03/30/2002 12:38:06 PM PST by OLD REGGIE

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