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To: OLD REGGIE
I did offer to pronounce my personal definition of "magisterium" and discuss it on my terms. For some reason he didn't take me up on the offer.

That is because it is impossible for you to discuss a Catholic teaching on your own terms. The Church has precise definitions on what She believes. If you don't relate your discussion to those definitions, but rather a definition of your own making, you will only be arguing against a figment of your imagination, not true Catholic teaching. Witness Havoc's inane objections to the term Theotokos(i.e. "How can Mary be God's mother? That would mean that she existed before God."). He is arguing against something which is not is not a part of, and is indeed directly contrary to, the definition of Theotokos as taught by the Council of Ephesus. There is only one faith that the Catholic Church holds. A faith which has been preserved and passed on since the Apostles.

The same cannot, sadly, be said of Protestantism. Whether it is justification, the Sacraments, the nature of the Church, the authority of said Church, Christology, morality, or even the nature of Sola Scriptura, they all mean different things to different groups of Protestants. The Lutherans say one thing, the Calvinists another, the Anglicans another, the Baptists another, the non-denominational denominationalists yet another, etc... Will you say that they are all wrong and you are right, as Havoc does? That is what they each say about you.

For you to proclaim the "true" definition of Sola Scriptura is, no offense, a bit disingenuous for there are as many definitions as there are Protestants denominations. They may be very similar, but they can be subtly different from each other. Be that as it may, in the end Sola Scriptura, in whatever form, ultimately leads to a radical individualism that has never been a part of the historic Christian faith.

Pray for JP II

3,207 posted on 10/26/2001 3:32:50 PM PDT by dignan3
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To: dignan3
Witness Havoc's inane objections to the term Theotokos(i.e. "How can Mary be God's mother? That would mean that she existed before God."). He is arguing against something which is not is not a part of, and is indeed directly contrary to, the definition of Theotokos as taught by the Council of Ephesus.

The only thing you misrepresent as well as scripture is the words of anyone that argues against your beliefs. Mary is the mother of the physical form of Jesus. I have not argued that she is not the mother of Jesus. I have made the statement that she is not, as the implication of your statements would infer, the creator of God. And I stated that whether you intend to state her as the creator of God or not. I'm not letting such a blasphemous inferrance hang out there in the wind for others to abuse. If you have a problem with that, tough!

The Lutherans say one thing, the Calvinists another, the Anglicans another, the Baptists another, the non-denominational denominationalists yet another, etc... Will you say that they are all wrong and you are right, as Havoc does? That is what they each say about you.

Which even I have dealt with quite plainly and clearly. Let me say it again, lest you think you are getting by with something. Protestants in general are guilty of the same vile garbage Catholicism, Budhism, Satanism, Taoism, etc are guilty of - following philosophy. The difference is that Catholicism and much of Protestantism dip their philosophy in Christianity like one would dip a cookie in Milk and then want to call the Cookie "Milk". Catholics group together around the cookie and damn and kick the milk for anything their worth, lest the milk saturate and crumble the cookie. Ya'll defend your philosophies at any cost. You dip only as it pleases you to do so and heaven and earth tremble should you ever, oh to think it, drink the milk and set the cookie aside - woe. You can't have it both ways. You can drink the milk or eat the cookie. The milk may make your stomache a little sour; but, it's good for you. The cookie is sweet but it'll rot your teath and poison your body. Woe. But you hold on to your bags of cookies and won't drink the untainted milk. You have to pour liquer or chocolate in the milk before you can stomach it because after all the cookies, you're lactose intolerant!! But you do have purgatory pills to keep the stomache fooled.

3,216 posted on 10/26/2001 4:35:03 PM PDT by Havoc
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To: dignan3
For you to proclaim the "true" definition of Sola Scriptura is, no offense, a bit disingenuous for there are as many definitions as there are Protestants denominations. They may be very similar, but they can be subtly different from each other. Be that as it may, in the end Sola Scriptura, in whatever form, ultimately leads to a radical individualism that has never been a part of the historic Christian faith.

You made my point. Of course I could not define the Magesterium on my own terms and then knock it down. Neither should SD define Sola Scriptura on his own terms and then knock it down, (I don't believe it was you I took issue with) yet he did, not once but time after time. One thing you must remember; if I make a statement about RC dogma, or doctrine I can be only 100% right or 100% wrong. You cannot do the same with your mythical "Protestant".

Incidentally, I printed a few definitions of the Primacy of Scripture from St. Augustine. I wouldn't quarrel with his, or many of the Early Church Fathers on this issue. I wonder why you find it necessary to disavow the teachings which don't support your position. Your transparent ploy of firing off quote after quote of other writings is wasted energy. If I declared he or they said differently it might be appropriate.

The Paramount Authority of Scripture (Sola Scriptura, if you will) was the primary part of the Christian faith until it became necessary for some to add an expanded definition of "Tradition" and "Magisterium" to support a changing position.
3,220 posted on 10/26/2001 5:37:57 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE
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