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To: D-fendr;PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
But thank you for your encouraging and helpful post.

If I misunderstood your intent of your post to Becky please accept my apologies. I interpreted it such that you were telling her to stop talking about what she was taught or remembered from her teachings. Her experience, my experience, and the experience of many others is identical and it is my belief that we should continue to speak of it.
24,290 posted on 02/05/2002 12:30:09 PM PST by OLD REGGIE
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To: OLD REGGIE
"Her experience, my experience, and the experience of many others is identical and it is my belief that we should continue to speak of it."

You're gonna disagree somehow with this, but maybe not, so I'll try. Here's what I see:

Many of us have bad experiences with religion, it seems epidemic in youth. Religion is, too, used to cut to our deepest self, and used to harm that aspect of us, sometimes for good motives, sometimes out of recycled injury. This happens often for both and all sides here.

This is what I see often on this thread: Old pains and resentments expressed in anger. Old fears and insecurities re-opened.

I've asked: What is it about discussing religion, supposedly the area of knowing that teaches us to access our highest nature, that so often brings out our lowest? I think the reason is about these old injuries.

So, to your point: "…the experience of many others is identical and it is my belief that we should continue to speak of it." Yes, if it is helpful; no,if it is not. This is something we each decide, but sometimes others can be of help, looking from outside with good intentions. My intention is that those who suffer need not; this is, IMO, the most useful and practical religious experience. And talking, arguing I would argue, about these old wounds is not inherently helpful, it can also increase the injury, add new injury, re-visit old injury, re-enforce old injury, justify injuring back.

In these cases talking about the bad experience is not what I would recommend. Is it possible to lessen our own injury by injuring others? Is it possible to seek to harm others without harming ourself?

Back to the practical aspect of religion, the topic of this thread. Let's apply this here, and I'll take this opportunity to offer you the possibility to consider your experience as an example: Has your discussion/debate here resulted in more fruit of the Holy Spirit in you: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control?

Is this the evidence shown in your discussion and debate here, in your "continuing to speak of it"?

If it has not, then I would say that continuing is not a good thing. And that when we continue on with behaviour that results in the opposite of these fruits, then we are often missing a piece, we often cannot see for ourselves what we are really asking for, what we are really looking for.

Another indication of this is when we find we cannot get enough, even when we "win" something is missing. This tells us we are not really asking for what we claim we are asking for; it is a symptom, not a cause.

Was Peter a pope; what is the history of the lineage of the popes? Is this really the goal you and Becky are so engrossed in? If you could know for absolute certainty the answer to this would religion then increase your love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control?

Or would there then be another most important history to determine? And then another, and another?

Hence my earlier consideration: "Ok. You have proven that Catholics are dead wrong. Now what?" I posted that to consider if you accomplished that would it bring you what you are really seeking? And, if not, why not lay it down, what is it that keeps its hold on you, what would happen for you if you let it go?

And now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go spend more time in the box.

24,307 posted on 02/05/2002 1:28:14 PM PST by D-fendr
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