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To: Woodkirk
"Theotokos" which the RCC and OC claim means "Mother of God", is a combination of "Theo" meaning "God, deity" and "tokos" meaning "usury, interest on money". Isn't that interesting.

"Theotokos" -- would that term refer to "the deity of usury", the deity of money", the "deity of moneylenders -- the god of mammon.

Catholics and Greek Orthodox are being conned big time. If only they understood the words that they used --

LOL. LOL. You are a living testament to the adage that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Do you really think that a billion people never looked up words in Strong's? You are insulting in your assumption of foolishness on the part of all Catholics and Orthodox. Shame on you.

Just for fun: tokos childbirth; akin to Greek tiktein to beget

SD

23,919 posted on 02/04/2002 12:12:21 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
Dave - LOL! We've got to stop meeting like this! This time, we both posted at the exact same minute. Twice in one day now. Too weird.
23,923 posted on 02/04/2002 12:13:57 PM PST by Wordsmith
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To: SoothingDave; allend; Havoc; OLD REGGIE; Wordsmith
I find this to be the singularly most interesting topic. Especially the church father's dealing with the subject.

Augustine
THE CITY OF GOD
Book 1 - Containing a General View of the Subjects Treated in Holy Scripture.

Chapter 18.-The Keys Given to the Church.

17. He has given, therefore, the keys to His Church, that whatsoever it should bind on earth might be bound in heaven, and whatsoever it should loose on earth might be, loosed in heaven; that is to say, that whosoever in the Church should not believe that his sins are remitted, they should not be remitted to him; but that whosoever should believe and should repent, and turn from his sins, should be saved by the same faith and repentance on the ground of which he is received into the bosom of the Church. For he who does not believe that his sins can be pardoned, falls into despair, and becomes worse as if no greater good remained for him than to be evil, when he has ceased to have faith in the results of his own repentance.

Of course, one could argue that Peter's successor is the representative of the church, having received greater authority....Cyprian disagrees.

Cyprian
On the Unity of the Church

4. The Lord speaks to Peter, saying, "I say unto thee, that thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." And again to the same He says, after His resurrection, "Feed nay sheep." And although to all the apostles, after His resurrection, He gives an equal power, and says, "As the Father hath sent me, even so send I you: Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they shall be remitted unto him; and whose soever sins ye retain, they shall be retained; " yet, that He might set forth unity, He arranged by His authority the origin of that unity, as beginning from one. Assuredly the rest of the apostles were also the same as was Peter, endowed with a like partnership both of honour and power; but the beginning proceeds from unity.

Now as I was reading the commentary on this I was very, very interested and thought some comments from you all would be in order. This is obviously polemical commentary but brings up some quite valid and interesting points.

Launoi, the eminent Gallican, found but seventeen of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church (among whom he reckons "Fathers" down to the twelfth century) who understand St. Peter to be "the rock," and he cites forty of the contrary opinion. Yet of the "seventeen," most of them speak only rhetorically, and with justifiable freedom. I have often done the same myself, on the principle which the same apostle applies to all Christians: "Ye also as lively stones," etc. But it is quite noteworthy that the Council of Trent itself momentarily adopts the prevailing patristic and therefore the Catholic interpretation, speaking of the Nicene Creed:843 "In quo omnes qui fidem Christi profitentur necessario conveniunt, ac fundamentum firmum et unicum, contra quod portaeinferi nunquam praevalebunt (Matthew 16:18)." Thus, the faith of Peter is confessed the only foundation, in a direct exposition of the text so often quoted with another intent. In spite of all this, the Creed of Pius IV. was enjoined as soon as that council closed; and every member of the late Vatican Council was made to profess the same verbally before any other business was undertaken. Now, even this spurious creed forced them to swear concerning the Holy Scriptures," I will never take and interpret them otherwise than according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers." Obviously, according to this rule, there is no Catholic doctrine on the subject; much less any Catholic teaching to the effect that the modern bishops of Rome are "the rock," as really as St. Peter himself.

Now here is the part which will fascinate Havoc and perhaps suggest an area of concentration in regards to the Decretals.

This bit of commentary is specifically in regards to Cyprian's "On the Unity of the Church."

...to illustrate the bearings of this treatise upon the history of Christian unity, we need only refer to the manner in which the subject was treated as soon as the papacy was created by Nicholas I. Thus, he astounded the Greeks by his consummate audacity (a.d. 860) in the matter of the disputed succession in Constantinople. "It is our will," he says, "that Ignatius should appear before our envoys," etc. He declares it the rule of the Fathers, that, "without the consent of the Roman See and the Roman pontiff, nothing should be decided." Also, he affirms, "The Creator of all things has established the Princedom of the Divine Power, which He granted to His chosen apostles. He has firmly established it on the firm faith of the Prince of the Apostles,-that is to say, Peter,-to whom he pre-eminently granted the first See," etc. He was now speaking on the strength of the forged Decretals, to which he appeals, and which he succeeded in making law for the West. He thus created the lasting schism with the Easterns, who had never heard the like before his time.

Fire at will.

23,938 posted on 02/04/2002 12:28:16 PM PST by the808bass
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To: SoothingDave
See 23936 -- take it up with Strong's Exhaustive Concordnce
23,943 posted on 02/04/2002 12:31:29 PM PST by Woodkirk
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