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To: OLD REGGIE
(SD)-Mary remained without sin her entire life. She was the new ark of the covenant, a perfect vessel.

(the8088bass)-Now we're getting to the meat. The bottom line (as I see it, correct me if I'm wrong) is that the Catholic conception of original sin leads a Catholic to the logical conclusion that Mary was without sin her entire life. And further, that she was immaculately conceived. Perhaps this is the sticking point for Protestants in the argument over Mary's children (it is for me). Perhaps this foundational argument is the real problem that we have with perpetual virginity.

The concept of Original Sin leads to the IC (disrupting the transmission of OS). It doesn't speak to the lack of personal (regular everday) sin. Adam and Eve had no OS, but they were capable of sin. Mary had no OS and was capable of sin. That she did not sin was a special grace given to her but I believe it is a separate issue from the IC.

I am waiting for a reply from SoothingDave on this same question. It appears that Romans 3: suggests not only do all (includes Mary) have sin but that we are saved on "faith alone". It is just possible this is a difficult question to respond to.

Romans 3:
22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;
23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,

Romans does not suggest that "all" have sinned, as we define "all." Again we see the use of Hebraic hyperbole. Jesus did not sin. We are told that Job did not sin. "All" here does not mean "everyone."

Everyone who is saved, including Mary, is saved because of the grace of God, through no merit of their own.

SD

1,871 posted on 10/22/2001 12:21:25 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: IMRight
OK, everyone, listen up. I'm going to do something we don't see here often. I'm going to correct my own side. Ref post 1599

Let's look all the way back in Salvation history: What would the state of the world be like if Adam and Eve had never fallen? We would merely be creatures (servants and slaves to be more exact).

Not true. Adam and Eve had a free will, they were not mere creatures or slaves. They could obey God or not.

This would not be a bad thing of course - to spend our days walking in the garden with the Lord - but we would not have eternal life (or if we did, we would be more like the angels).

Death entered the world as a consequence of Adam's sin. Life in Eden was eternal. We are created like the angels are, but they have no bodies.

Instead, we not only have eternal life in Heaven, we have become adopted sons and daughters of God. Heirs of God & co-heirs with Christ. We shall, in fact, reign with him throughout eternity. This "good news" is infinitely and immeasurably above what we were ever destined to prior to the fall (and why I believe that even the fall was part of God's design). So now we can say "Behold what manner of Love the Father has given unto us... That we should be called children of God... and so we are!" This is not "and so we are" as in "and son-of-a-gun we are", it is that He has declared us His children and He cannot declare a thing without it being so (God cannot lie).

"Oh Glorious Sin of Adam" goes the Easter Exultet. Yes, the new plan with Christ is so much better than the old one.

But the mid-term result of their sin was to dis-grace us as a people. That is - Adam & Eve essentially said "no" to God and we became unable to ever say "yes" to Him. Our very nature is in opposition to His design for us and to His law. We have not the grace to respond to His call (until Christ, of course). We are generated after Adam and receive that fallen nature.

You have here a Calvinist conception which in not Catholic. Calvin teaches a total depravity, Catholicism teaches a partial depravity. We can still want to work to the good, but we are flawed. We are not totally depraved.

So now we come to Mary. Many non-Catholics (and many Catholics) believe that the Catholic position is that it would be impossible for a sinful woman to bear a sinless creature, so Mary had to be sinless. This is not so (and is demonstrably false since it would require Mary's mother to also be sinless etc. etc. etc.) Mary need not be sinless, and in fact, she certainly had committed the same types of sins all of us do. She only needs to be free from the dis-gracing nature of original sin (the stain of Adam) so that it is possible for her to say "yes" to Christ.

The transmission of Original Sin was stopped at Mary. It is also Catholic belief that Mary lived a life free of personal sin, due to the special graces given her for her role.

This does not mean that she had no personal sin from which she could (need) to be saved.

Yes it does.

But more importantly, lacking original sin could only elevate her from renegade servant or rebellious creature to one who was not in opposition to God's will (at best, the level Adam & Eve started at). It would not make her bound for Heaven and eternal life with the Father. She must still be saved.

No no no no no. "Original Sin" can be seen as a lack of sanctifying grace. This is the grace which saves us, makes us holy, makes us adpoted children of God. We are born lacking this and this is what baptism fills us with. One filled with sanctifying grace is ready for Heaven. Personal sin taps this sanctifying grace, thus our need for replenishment via the sacraments.

Mary was saved by Christ before she was born. She was preserved from Original Sin in the womb of her mother and she was given special graces to resist temptation to personal sin. Rather than save her from "the hole" in which most of us find ourselves, Jesus saved her from ever falling into that hole.

SD

1,884 posted on 10/22/2001 12:37:29 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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