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To: dignan3
In other words, the word kecharitomene is completely about Mary. She is the subject of the verb, not the Angel.

I know you won't respond (as apparently my posts in regards to Greek do not exist), but you're only half right here. She is the subject of the verb, but as it is in the middle/passive (there is only one way to denote the two voices in the perfect participle), she is being acted upon. When I say, "I was hit" it doesn't say a whole lot about me except what happened to me. It doesn't say that I have a quality of "hitness" which makes people hit me. That is the stretch which you are attempting to make when you say that the participle in the middle/passive shows us something about Mary. She is the object of grace (a far better translation of charitoo than favor, synonomous to the Hebrew word that is translated in KJV "favor" as in "Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord"). It's not that she has some "graceness" which causes her to be the object of grace.

1,668 posted on 10/21/2001 1:51:27 PM PDT by the808bass
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To: the808bass
When I say, "I was hit" it doesn't say a whole lot about me except what happened to me. It doesn't say that I have a quality of "hitness" which makes people hit me. That is the stretch which you are attempting to make when you say that the participle in the middle/passive shows us something about Mary.

Thanks for your analysis of the actual language (from someone who actual knows something about it), this is the best explanation I've seen to understand the meaning conveyed by the writer and speaker.

1,670 posted on 10/21/2001 1:57:02 PM PDT by Iowegian
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To: the808bass; hopefulpilgrim
I know you won't respond (as apparently my posts in regards to Greek do not exist), but you're only half right here. She is the subject of the verb, but as it is in the middle/passive (there is only one way to denote the two voices in the perfect participle), she is being acted upon. When I say, "I was hit" it doesn't say a whole lot about me except what happened to me. It doesn't say that I have a quality of "hitness" which makes people hit me. That is the stretch which you are attempting to make when you say that the participle in the middle/passive shows us something about Mary. She is the object of grace (a far better translation of charitoo than favor, synonomous to the Hebrew word that is translated in KJV "favor" as in "Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord"). It's not that she has some "graceness" which causes her to be the object of grace.

OK, here we go.

Kecharitomene is a perfect middle/passive participle. I agree with your explanation of the middle/passive voice, to a point(which I will explain below). The perfect tense denotes a past completed action. The participle corresponds to "-ed" or -"ing" in English.

The reason why I don't fully agree on the middle/passive is the example you used. My question is what is the nature of grace(charitoo)? Is it not an interior, real transformation of the soul? The only other place that charitoo is used is in Ephesians:

Ephesians 1:5(KJV) "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;"
The words in color is the translation of the Greek, echaritôsen. How are we to be echaritôsen? God, through His grace forgives us our sins through the blood of Christ. It transforms the soul from being in sin to being free from sin because grace and sin are polar opposites.

Now if God has completed in the past His giving of grace to Mary, as the perfect tense denotes, can there be any stain of sin on her soul at the time of the Angelic greeting of Luke 1:28? Is not then the translation "full of grace" a legitimate translation, especially in light of her vocation as Mother of the Word made flesh? Would, and can, God draw flesh and dwell in a woman racked with sin?

Now, I admit that kecharitomene doesn't, by itself, imply that this completion of grace that God bestowed on Mary happened at conception. All we know from kecharitomene is that it was completed sometime before Luke 1:28. It is through the recognition of Mary as the "new Eve", the comparison between the two being made as early as the 2nd century, and her similarities to the Ark of the Covenant(which is implicit in Scripture), which gives us further insight on the dignity that God bestowed Mary although I know you most likely don't buy into those two comparisons(though you should for it would make things a lot easier :>)),

I completely agree with your last sentence. Apart from God, Mary is just another young Jewish virgin.

Pray for John Paul II

2,088 posted on 10/22/2001 10:51:49 PM PDT by dignan3
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