Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Mocking aside, yes. One who did not read could very well come to learn the essential stories of Scripture by attending liturgy faithfully. The entire first half of the liturgy is devoted to reading and explaining the Word. Need it be said to those who mock this method that the illiterate man would garner more knowledge of Scripture from a Catholic service than a Protestant one. There is no guarantee that your local pastor will cover certain sections of the Bible.
(dignan3)Between those two, an excellent record has been established of what the Church believed and what the heretics, and make no mistake about it, that's what they were in the truest sense of the word, believed.
"An excellent record" of all disagreements and punishments? Sure, dignan3. You go ahead and believe that everyone who had access to the Scriptures was in agreement with THE church's teachings, except for a few heretics. Believe what you want to believe.
We have an extensive Church history. When heresies are discovered and routed out a detailed record of such is kept. That way when the old ideas arise "anew" we can easily identify them. That you have a problem with this record of history is your problem.
SD
In addition, the Roman Catholic Church was not set in stone and fully developed hierarchically (let alone doctrinally) by the time of the completion of the NT. So the predating argument lacks force (even assuming that the RCC is the "church" of Mt. 16:18).
That the hierarchy was not set in stone or that all ideas were not fully developed does not change the chronology at all. Sacred Tradition helped shape the early Church, this Church, shaped by Tradition wrote and canonized the NT, and shaped by Tradition continues today to bring the good news to the people.
Tradition predates Scripture, in other words. It helped write and recognize Scripture.
SD
After reading some of the response to Mack's question about "has anyone changed their minds" it made me wonder if any of your guys of other beliefs, not necessairly just catholic, but does any of you think it would make God happy if for instance I was to change my mind and become catholic? Would it make a difference?
I know a lot of my Catholic friends equivocated on this, but I won't. Yes, God would be happy if you came to realize the great gift He left us in the Catholic Church. I am not saying that God wants us to force you to be Catholic or anything other than a free choice. But He would be happy if you contributed to the unity of Christianity by ending your "leave of absence" from the Church.
SD
Orthodox Judaism teaches that the fetus becomes a nefesh (person) when the forehead emerges from the birth canal (or, in the case of a feet-first presentation, when most of the body is outside the mother's body). However, this does not translate into an acceptance of abortion. Although there may be some exceptions, most Orthodox Jews are firmly pro-life. Any use of abortion other than to save the mother's life is unacceptable.
So in other words you all would agree that there are different ways to reach heaven, and the doctrine of "only one way" is not correct? That as long as you are doing what you feel God is telling you to do you are OKay?
Not at all. I think the other Catholics were recognizing that you are happy as an IFFB, and a better Christian there than you were when you were Catholic. Nobody thinks that as long as you do what you feel God is telling you that all is OK. Remember, we are the ones who are constantly questioning everybody's individual interpretation of Scripture. We will be the first to tell you that just because you feel God is telling you something, it doesn't make it so.
SD
SD
Since you made the statement "the whole concept of hell is misrepresented by Protestants" I think it behooves you to explain to us what you mean. Don't throw something out there and then run for cover.
You posted the link. Do you understand that this is not placing Mary on the same level with Jesus? That "Co" does not mean "equal"? That it would be a recognition of Mary's role in salvation, that of assenting to the birth of Christ.
That's all.
SD
Well, I think the best way to go about demonstrating this is to flag you the next time I see it happen. But to give one example, consider the case of John 6. As a noninterested party, I can read this chapter, and see that the Catholic interpretation is a plausible one. Certain Protestants will not accept this, though, and will insist that their reading of the passage is the only possible and true reading of the passage.
See my #7667.
It's statements like these that scare me, because it puts no faith in the Holy Spirit or the Word of God.
It puts utmost faith in the Holy Spirit. You Protestants always make this mistake. The Church is not the enemy of the Holy Spirit. We believe that the Church is guided, protected from error, by the HS.
If the church tomorrow sanctioned abortions, would you go along with it, and please don't say that's an impossibility, assume for a second it happened.
It would never happen. We might as well start saying things like "what if tomorrow 2 and 2 was 5?" Ridiculous. Try to meditate on the idea of being protected by the HS from error in teaching.
There is value in the authority of the church and elders up to an extent, and that extent is the Word of God.
Here we have the circular argument of Protestantism. Is it possible to ask these valuable church elders their idea about what Scripture means? Yes. But the ultimate authority is the Scripture itself. But what does that mean? It means that the elders have no value if they contradict what I think Scripture means, or what I am convinced that the HS told me Scripture means.
Reduced to the essence, yes a Catholic will follow his church. And a Protestant will follow only himself.
SD
Great post, FC. Thanks for sharing it.
Regarding Robby's post #7731
If the church tomorrow sanctioned abortions...
We have a difficulty here, because the Biblical sanctions against abortion are anything but clear. The Jewish position, by the way, or at least as I understand it, is that "life" begins with birth.
The way I see it Robby would continue extolling the virtues of catholisism should the catholic church ever sanction abortions. I would like to know what the rest of you catholics think about this?
And please don't say "I don't want to deal with hypotheticals" because you ask our side to do it all the time.
Mary has no role in salvation. Is that what you said? God chose to come to earth as a child. God chose this way to bring about our salvation. He could have chosen other ways but He did not.
Mary gave her assent for her womb to be used by God. Gave her assent to bring up the Christ child.
This is "no role" to you.
What if Mary had declined?
SD
You are right. I meant to say a Protestant will follow the "spirits" in his head.
SD
Out of love for God and others.
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