Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
First of all, I didn't wave my hands in the air and call Anglicans essentially anything. Nor do I wash my hands of it. Have you made a point, yes. Is it germane to the issue, not really. Catholicism had been an oppressor in Europe for Centuries on end. By the time of the move to America that was still the case and would be the case for some time to come. So, we're not talkin about ancient freakin history from the point of view of the colonists. Columbus Landed in 1492. The Decretals weren't even fully exposed until the following Century. And it wasn't till 400 years later that the RCC was chased off Italian lands. So, let's keep some honest perspective, shall we.
Can we decide what it is we are after here? Are you on about religious freedom in one breath, and in the next chastising the Catholics for not liking having Protestantism taught to their children in "Public" schools?
Hey, it's fact - whatever the explanation you choose to slap on it. The Catholic Church segregated itself. Seems that parents of different sects than yours managed to do just fine. Nobody excluded the RCC but the RCC. And in this country today, the same standards are in use - if you want special treatment, go do your own thing. The state is about educating kids; not treating any particular group special or different. They taught the dirt basics then, and today they rarely do that; but, that's beside the point. Ya'll cried foul for being treated the same as everyone else.
Congratulations, you are ignorant about early American history, as well as European. Many of the colonies had established religions, all Protestant except for Maryland. The Federal gov't, for sure, was prohibited from playing favorites, but the states were not.
Oh, I thought I was talking about Federal. Thank you for digging into my mind and correcting me on that point (/sarcasm). The fed steered the constitution away from the concept of a state religion. And states at the time were growing from settlements of like minded people. Different beleifs segregated themselves in different areas so that they would be with like minded individuals. The Catholics here, like everyone else had to fend for themselves. Catholics, however, seemed more interested in crying foul. Seems they weren't Comfortable not being in charge and telling people how it was going to be...
Here's where you wash your hands and say the C of E is "Catholic" and baaaaaad news. Were the Catholics oppressed? "Nope" you say. I guess all of those "Irish need not apply" signs and the anti-Catholicism of the KKK are don't count? Al Smith? "Rum, Romanism, and Rebellion"? Any of this ring a bell?
No here is where I said C of E was just as Bad as the RCC. Again, you put words in my mouth. Ya'll are pretty good at that too... Anything but face facts. The RCC was used to being the bully on the block, and it threw a fit when C of E was formed. I would sumbmit that It threw as big a fit when it wasn't given preferential treatment in america. But then ya'll want us to view it as the church being picked on. I wouldn't say picked on - maybe people in the time got even a bit in their own eyes (lol); but, picked on - nope.
Why would the Lord light a candle and then hide it under a bushel basket?
SD
Now your catching on.
Excellent. Then join his church.
You really don't get it at all. Let's try something novel and work from the assumption that Catholics are Christian, too. No, too hard. Let's pretend Catholics are a weird strange mystery cult that was inimically opposed to the tenets of Protestantism. Let's also, for the sake of argument, assume that Catholics are good, decent, taxpaying Americans.
Why on earth should their tax dollars go to a school which is goiing to poision their childrens' minds?
What to you is "the dirt basics" is indoctrination 101 to us. Understand?
(I guess I should belabor the point, given the audience here, an do the old "role reversal." What if America were mainly founded by Catholics and Orthodox. And they developed public schools which taught about the authority of the Church and had statues of Mary and said the "Abbreviated" version of the Our Father every day. Would you feel like you had to have your kids in a different kind of environment, lest they pick up some irrational Romanism?)
SD
Why thank you. And I pray that the scales will fall from your eyes and that you will come to know the fullness of God's Truth.
I can point to my church, I can point to what they teach and tell you it is the fullness of Truth. My candle burns highly all through the night. Your conception of "Church" is limited, and provide absolutely no guide for the weary soul. I can grab any one of you self-professed "saved, born-again" Christians, fully empowered by the "Holy Spirit" to understand Scripture, and get conflicting answers from you all. How is this light? This is chaos.
SD
Wow. Stop the presses. Allend tried to make a point using scripture.
Wow. I just went back and read that. That's real accurate JohnnyM. At least we think of them as one of the 7 churches. If catholics were sending out those messages via John, we wouldn't have received one. lol..
So did Jews, because they did not want their children indoctrinated into Protestantism. Havoc, do you have children? Do they go to public schools? The difference nowadays is that they indoctrinate secular humanism rather than Protestantism. There are plenty of Christians of all backgrounds who refuse to allow their children to attend public schools, precisely because they don't agree with the ideological instruction.
Nope, stole it from Scripture first hand. The concept is a strong one, though.
Why would Our Lord light a candle and then hide it? Why can't we find "The Church" without having to sort through a lot of nonsense and making individual judgments about a person's salvation?
SD
We have already done that and Protestants say the info is bogus. So if that's true, how about some Protestant providing the same for their church and it’s distinctive doctrines. That’s the problem., no Protestant can do that.
The simple fact of the matter is that (as JH is pointing out) you have a gap of several hundreds of years where you say you were flourishing and your doctrine was already established but you have no evidence. That's a problem. And your stating otherwise will not make it so.
Not true. There is no gap in Catholic history and no Catholic will deny that doctrine most certainly develop. As you well know, for about 300 years, Christians were persecuted and could not worship publicly. That’s why the first major post Apostolic Council wasn’t held until 325 in Nicea. We also know that three hundred and eighteen bishops were present so the church was growing even though it was being persecuted. When did your Church hold it's first council?
You do not seem to hold Protestants in too high a regard, but I'm not sure how your attitude is all that different from the caricature that you paint of them.
Not true. My issue is with a few posters on these threads that continue to post their attacks on Catholicism based on unsubstantiated allegations and assertions.
And probably a lot fewer abortions too.
(Still illegal in Ireland.)
SD
It's when I put my nose in the BOOK of books that I left my Southern Baptist faith and became a Catholic. I am now walking in the Truth and I will beg you to seek the same.
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