The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[vmatt]

These verses were not speaking of keeping a literal feast. Paul would not use leavened or unleavened bread regarding a literal feast knowing that it was part of the law done away in Christ.

1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

[israelite98]

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Joh 20:22 - And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. ;^)

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues,
Acts 2:16 but this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

[BureaucratusMaximus]

...but the living Christ within you at this very moment and every moment is a daily clebration not meant to be put aside in favor of a day when we had no hope.

Can't argue with you there. Amen!

[IMRight]

These verses were not speaking of keeping a literal feast.

Why? Christ took the place of a real lamb for a real feast (Passover).

Paul would not use leavened or unleavened bread regarding a literal feast knowing that it was part of the law done away in Christ.

Why? The real feast used unleavened bread.

Christ's sacrifice was of a piece with the Passover Seder. Why did Christ institute the new covenant within the boundaries of the old (the passover supper, that is)?

You are correct that Easter (and to a similar extent Christmas) have become flooded (and in some cases buried) with pagan ritual signs. But that does not change the real celebration of His death burial and resurrection. Christmas is harder since it does not even correspond to the actual birth day of Christ, but Easter is forever tied to the Passover.

[vmatt]

Read this again very carefully. Paul is definately not talking about bread, neither was Christ when he spoke of the leaven of the pharisees.

1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

[al_c]

It's very quiet in here today. I guess everyone's already gone for the biggest weekend in the church year?

Friday, March 29, 2002
Day of Fast and Abstinence
Good Friday

First Reading: Responsorial Psalm: Second Reading: Gospel:

Isaiah 52:13-15 and 53:1-12 Psalm 31:2, 6, 12-13, 15-17, 25 Hebrews 4:14-16 and 5:7-9 John 18:1-40 and 19:1-42

From St. Alphonsus Liguori, On the Passion and the Death of Jesus Christ (Reflections, XII.5):
Jesus, on the point of dying, said, "It is finished" (John 19:30). And while uttering these words, he ran over in his mind the whole course of his life. He saw all the fatigues he had gone through--the poverty, the pains, the insults; and he offered them all to his Eternal Father for the salvation of the world.

Then, turning himself back again to us, it seems as if he repeated, "It is finished," as though he had said, "All is fulfilled; your redemption is accomplished; the divine justice is satisfied; paradise is opened; and 'behold your time, the time of lovers' (Ezekiel 16:8). It is time at last for you to surrender yourselves to my love. p>"Love me, then, for there is nothing more that I can do in order to be loved by you. You see what I have done to gain your love. For you I have led a life which has been but one series of tribulations. Now I am content to let myself be drained of blood, I have my face spit upon, my flesh torn to pieces, my head crowned with thorns. It only remains for me to die for you. Come, O death; I give you permission to take away my life for the salvation of my flock. And you, my flock, love me, love me; for I can do no more in order to make myself beloved by you."

O Jesus, if only I too, could say in dying, "I have accomplished all that you have given me to do ... I have pleased you in all things." O my God, if I were to die now, I would not die content. But should I always live ungrateful for your love? Lord, grant me the grace to please you during the rest of my life so that, when death comes, I may be able to say to you, that from this time at least I have fulfilled your will.

"Lord, if in the past I have offended you, your death is my hope. For the future, I don't want to betray you anymore. But it is only from you that I can hope to remain faithful. By your merits, O my Jesus, I ask and hope it from you."

-----------

Y'all have a great weekend and Resurrection Sunday. May God bless you abundantly.

AC

[Ard Ri]

J; Sorry that I haven`t responded before now, but the job took me out to the West Coast for the week. Just got back in this morning. I find the notion that you would use a term like 'harmony' as the ultimate test for Scripture to be strange to use as a test. Let`s see... there are currently, what? ... over 300 Protestant Denominations ? .... Seems to be a lack of consensus on that 'harmony' for NC`s to me..... Which one is right? And, who is to make that decision? Can each be as valid as the next? If so, doesn`t that in itself mean any interpretation is as good as the next? And, if that is the case, why bother with Scripture at all ? Can the Pre-millenialists be as correct as the Post millenialists? God is not the Author of confusion, is He ? We Catholics believe that Christs` Bride, the Church, is protected from error on matters of Faith. Further, we believe that our understanding of Faith and Scripture can increase over time, just as the Faith of the Apostles increased from when first selected, to walking with the Lord, to witnessing His Death on the Cross, to being given strength by the Holy Spirit to carry out their works. Certainly their Faith and knowledge increased over time. So can ours, and so can our understanding of what Holy Scripture can hold for us. At any rate, I hope you and your family have a wonderful Easter, and Pray for those who are in harms way on our behalf. God bring them home safely .

[vmatt]

It's very quiet in here today. I guess everyone's already gone for the biggest weekend in the church year?

Sad but true.

[vmatt]

Can't argue with you there. Amen!

Thank you.

[IMRight]

Read this again very carefully. Paul is definately not talking about bread, neither was Christ when he spoke of the leaven of the pharisees.

No. I suspect that they were both speaking of leaven in the same sense that the Jews did (and it was the same reason that the leaven was left out of the Passover Seder as well). And yet the Passover feast was still a real feast, no? The leavening (our sin I believe) was left out. But it was left out of real bread as well, not just metaphorically. How does your point change the tie between Passover and Easter? The verse is still "Christ: Our Passover Lamb"

[RnMomof7]

JESUSJESUSJESUSJESUSJESUSJESUSJESUSJESUSJESUSJESUSJESUSJESUSJESUSJESUSJESUSJESUSJESUSJESUSJESUSJESUSJESUSJESUSJESUS JESUS JESUS JESUS JESUS JESUS JESUS JESUS JESUS

CHRIST

CRUCIFIED

RISEN

[al_c]

Very nice!

[israelite98]

Paul would not use leavened or unleavened bread regarding a literal feast knowing that it was part of the law done away in Christ.

???

Matt 5:17 "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

1 Cor 15:27 "For God has put all things in subjection under his feet." [?] But when it says, "All things are put in subjection under him," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one. 29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? 30 Why am I in peril every hour?
Hebrews 2:8 putting everything in subjection under his feet." Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. As it is, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him
10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 then to wait until his enemies should be made a stool for his feet.

Matt 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. 4 They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Sad but true.

Easter comes from the word Isthar, a pagan fertility god. The Easter tradition was started by Constantine. I'll stick with Passover.

[vmatt]

How does your point change the tie between Passover and Easter? The verse is still "Christ: Our Passover Lamb"

Here is Jesus on the Jewish feast day calling them to come to him and drink. Imagine the significance of this statement in light of the passover. In other words, don't go to the Jews and their feasts, come to me and drink. He didn't last long after this. He taught them to eat and drink him, when some left him for that saying. He is the fulfillment of passover and to look to an empty ritual is ignorance of the truth.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Here is Paul teaching of what to do if you are asked to a feast by an unbeliever and only if you are disposed to go, not even a requirement and not any feast held within the church.

1 Corinthians 10:27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

[vmatt]

Easter comes from the word Isthar, a pagan fertility god. The Easter tradition was started by Constantine. I'll stick with Passover.

Passover is a Jewish holiday fulfilled in Christ. He was sarificed once for all time and reenacting that with a ritual of any kind on any day is ignorance of the truth.

[vmatt]

Galatians 5: 1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Passover is a Jewish holiday fulfilled in Christ. He was sarificed once for all time and reenacting that with a ritual of any kind on any day is ignorance of the truth.

How would you reenact a passover? Eat Matza flee to Canada, and have the Lake of the Woods parted? That would be a true reenactment. If you think setting aside a special day to remember how God passed over the Israelites and the passing over of His people from death to life thru Jesus, its you that possesses the ignorance. I don't even mind Christians making this Sunday special remembering the Resurection of Jesus. I just prefer passover.

[israelite98]

Matt 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. 4 They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."

Hebrews 2:8 putting everything in subjection under his feet." Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. As it is, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him
Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 9:8 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the sanctuary is not yet opened as long as the outer tent is still standing 9 (which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, 10 but deal only with food and drink and various ablutions, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.
28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many,shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.
Heb 10:9 then he added, "Lo, I have come to do thy will." He abolishes the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 then to wait until his enemies should be made a stool for his feet.
1 Cor 15:26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.56 The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law

Matt 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. 4 They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger.

[Iowegian]

We Catholics believe that Christs` Bride, the Church, is protected from error on matters of Faith.

Well that's very handy since they consider themselves the "one true church" when they say "the Church". Neither the first or the second is provable and are not show by the facts.