The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[SoothingDave]

My whole family is catholic, about 98% of the people I grew up around are catholic, and I know how they view Mary.

How do they view Mary?

SD

[pegleg]

Actions speak louder then words.

I'm sorry you have trouble grasping the teaching of the Church regarding Mary.

[SoothingDave]

And here's the gist of the dispute. To the Chick types and to our honorable NCs, this paragraph describes worship. To a Catholic it simply does not. It is a sad case where those with only a hammer view everything as a nail.

So if a bunch of Buddhists were doing this to a statue of Buddha would you consider it worship? If so, why?

I might ask.

SD

[ksen]

From Unam Sanctum:

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Is this an infallible pronouncement? Has this view ever changed?

-ksen

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

BTW the catechism you quoted does not appear to me to be a difinition of "worship"

Becky

[SoothingDave]

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Is this an infallible pronouncement? Has this view ever changed?

Yes. No*.

*: Greater allowances have been made theologically for people who through no fault of their own are ignorant.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

How do they view Mary

I am sorry to say that when it comes to the catholic faith, they are sheep, following along because their whole family has always been catholic. In reality, they don't know that they don't know the first thing about the bible, God, or Mary, or even the religion they follow, except for maybe that God created everything, and they should beleive in Him and go to church on Sunday. I have never heard the kind of things about the RCC that I have on here.

Becky

[ksen]

You’re still speaking in general terms here. So what you are telling me is you are basing your opinion on non Catholic perceptions.

I guess if you consider former Catholics unknowledgable about the teachings, well maybe I shouldn’t say teachings but actions rather, of the RCC. As far as the testimonies from the missionaries, I have no reason to believe that they would lie.

You still didn’t answer my question. How many everyday Catholic’s do you know? And to expand the point, besides this forum, how many do you have conversations with?

My mother’s family was raised Catholic. I have pretty good conversations with a Catholic guy at my work. Other than him I don’t really have the opportunity to meet and discuss Theology with RC’s other than here.

Again, you didn’t answer my question.

I know.

Communication is a wonderful thing isn’t it?

Yes it is.

I realize that. That’s why I’m asking you to be more specific. My view is you are passing judgement on a large number of Catholics that you have no direct experience with.

If I get specific or use words that imply that I “know” what RC’s teach or do I tend to get reprimanded and asked to use more general terms.

Opinions are fine. All I’m asking you is to back them up with some facts.

Since when have facts and opinions ever had any relation with one another? ;^)

Wonderful. Just by the few posts we have had, you responded to me that you don’t believe I worship Mary. And if I’m reading you correctly, you don’t think other Catholics on this thread do either. However you think other Catholics do because you think Catholics on these threads are not average Catholics. The point I am trying to make is the Catholics on this thread represent a tiny fraction of the Catholic population. I am confident your perceptions would change if you got to know more of us.

Has there ever been a reliable survey taken among all the members of the RCC to ask them if they worship Mary? If not then we both are just speculating.

-ksen

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Greater allowances have been made theologically for people who through no fault of their own are ignorant.

That was big of them:)

From what you know of my situation, would you say it is through no fault of my own that I am ignorant, due to the shoddy education I received in catholic schools.

Becky

[vmatt]

Thanks I love dictionaries but they are not inspired and often contain many past customary meanings. These verses in Matthew seem to indicate to me that true worship must be in the context of correctly applying the doctrines of God, notice in verse 9 "teaching" is directly related to "worship". In essence, what you believe in our heart about God must be true or our worship may be in vain. I would appreciate any comments, thanks.

Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

[ksen]

Yes. No*.

*: Greater allowances have been made theologically for people who through no fault of their own are ignorant.

How did I know that I would get an answer like that? ;^)

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

How does this language leave anything open for allowances? "Absolutely necessary.......every human creature..." seems to include even the Invincibly Ignorant.

What does "absolutely necessary" mean to you?

-ksen

[SoothingDave]

How do they view Mary

I am sorry to say that when it comes to the catholic faith, they are sheep, following along because their whole family has always been catholic. In reality, they don't know that they don't know the first thing about the bible, God, or Mary, or even the religion they follow, except for maybe that God created everything, and they should beleive in Him and go to church on Sunday. I have never heard the kind of things about the RCC that I have on here.

Sounds to me that you aren't sure what they believe, or if they believe anything. You seemed to be saying something different: My whole family is catholic, about 98% of the people I grew up around are catholic, and I know how they view Mary.

It seems like you were sure that they "worshipped" Mary and regarded themselves as doing so. Now I'm not sure what you are saying.

SD

[JohnnyM]

I think an aspect of worship is how you described, but not all worship deals with the doctrines of God. For instance, singing songs of praise is worship. Serving others is worship. Reading His Word is worship.

JM

[SoothingDave]

I guess if you consider former Catholics unknowledgable about the teachings, well maybe I shouldn’t say teachings but actions rather, of the RCC. As far as the testimonies from the missionaries, I have no reason to believe that they would lie.

No one said they were lying. It is the misinterpreting of actions that is the problem. I have no doubt that Catholics in normal and in foreign locales have parades with statues, etc.

The assumption that this is worship and that this means that Mary is regarded as a god is the problem.

Has there ever been a reliable survey taken among all the members of the RCC to ask them if they worship Mary? If not then we both are just speculating.

Has there been one among your denomination?

SD

[SoothingDave]

How does this language leave anything open for allowances? "Absolutely necessary.......every human creature..." seems to include even the Invincibly Ignorant.

Not at all. Any religious obligation is grounded in the fact that one must be cognizant of the obligation. It is also "absolutely necessary" for one to be properly Baptized before one can be saved. But there are exceptions.

SD

[ksen]

Has there been one among your denomination?

Nope, but then again we do not engage in practices that could be construed as worshipping Mary.

-ksen

[israelite98]

Thanks, I really don't know what you are trying to say but if you are implying Paul taught in Hebrews that they were to keep any facet of the law you are misreading and in error.

???

Romans 6:7 For he who has died freed from sin. 8 But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. 9 For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

1 Cor 15:55 "O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 8:5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly sanctuary; for when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain." 6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

[SoothingDave]

Has there been one among your denomination? Nope, but then again we do not engage in practices that could be construed as worshipping Mary.

What I meant was "do you routinely survey the members of your congregation to see if they believe things you don't teach"?

SD

[ksen]

Not at all. Any religious obligation is grounded in the fact that one must be cognizant of the obligation.

Not according to Boniface VIII. Don't you think that if he meant to include an out he wouldn't have been so absolute in his language?

It is also "absolutely necessary" for one to be properly Baptized before one can be saved.

No it isn't.

But there are exceptions.

Maybe to you, but Boniface VIII was quite clear in what he said. Unless you submit to the Roman Pontiff, you cannot be saved.

As an aside, do you think he wrote this to try to bring the Orthodox into line?

-ksen

[pegleg]

Has there ever been a reliable survey taken among all the members of the RCC to ask them if they worship Mary? If not then we both are just speculating.

You are the one speculating. I have explained to you what the teaching is, you just refuse to believe a large number of Catholics adhere to it. So I as mentioned, my view is you are passing judgement on a large number of Catholics that you have no direct experience with. Also known as an uninformed opinion.