Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
As I was looking something up the following came to my attention. It is from 1Timothy6:17,18and 19.
Charge the rich of this world not to be highminded,nor to trust in the uncertainty of riches,but in the living God,(who giveth us abundantly all things to enjoy,)
To do good,to be rich in good works,to give easily,to communicate to others,
To lay up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come,that they may lay hold on the true life.
Can you explain how this can be?Or maybe I have failed to understand what you all are talking about most of the time. I had been thinking you were saying "works" don't count.Was I wrong?
Where? Which church?
Matthew 15
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Becky
Becky
I am also not clear on what a reward is,I always kind of thought that because I have faith,keep the commandments and practice the beatitudes I would be rewarded with heaven. Can you untangle this for me? I also am convinced that Jesus is my only way to the Father,that He is the Way and the Truth and the Life.
That is because it is impossible for you to discuss a Catholic teaching on your own terms. The Church has precise definitions on what She believes. If you don't relate your discussion to those definitions, but rather a definition of your own making, you will only be arguing against a figment of your imagination, not true Catholic teaching. Witness Havoc's inane objections to the term Theotokos(i.e. "How can Mary be God's mother? That would mean that she existed before God."). He is arguing against something which is not is not a part of, and is indeed directly contrary to, the definition of Theotokos as taught by the Council of Ephesus. There is only one faith that the Catholic Church holds. A faith which has been preserved and passed on since the Apostles.
The same cannot, sadly, be said of Protestantism. Whether it is justification, the Sacraments, the nature of the Church, the authority of said Church, Christology, morality, or even the nature of Sola Scriptura, they all mean different things to different groups of Protestants. The Lutherans say one thing, the Calvinists another, the Anglicans another, the Baptists another, the non-denominational denominationalists yet another, etc... Will you say that they are all wrong and you are right, as Havoc does? That is what they each say about you.
For you to proclaim the "true" definition of Sola Scriptura is, no offense, a bit disingenuous for there are as many definitions as there are Protestants denominations. They may be very similar, but they can be subtly different from each other. Be that as it may, in the end Sola Scriptura, in whatever form, ultimately leads to a radical individualism that has never been a part of the historic Christian faith.
Pray for JP II
Not so. When God forgives, he throws the memory away from him as far as the east is from the west to remember it no more. What you are saying is that once forgiven, there is still something to forgive and deal with. Which is a lie of the devil. When God forgives, the sin no longer exists. And whatever ramifications there are exists in the natural and are dealt with in the natural through the leading of the Spirit. God doesn't give any outs; but, he doesn't hold repented of and forgiven sins over anyone's head after death. If he can't remember it, how can he punish for it? If it's forgiven and repented of, how then can anything be left to remove. You see. You have to play games with semantics. Because you can't say on the one hand that God is true in His pronouncements and that all is forgiven, and then turn around and say that all isn't forgiven, there's still something to take care of.
You run from the quotes by Wilhelm because they are blatent and telling. You say the same things and couch them in semantics and sophistry. You blaspheme God without a thought and then act injured when it's pointed out and can't understand why we don't understand what you are saying. We do understand what you are saying. 'It is royal blue but it isn't royal blue. But it doesn't conflict and don't quote me on it because it isn't an official infallible ex-cathedra died in the wool pronouncement of the Clergy.' Lemme tell ya, I have the solid word of God that I can quote and it calls your doctrine a lie.
Would it make you happier if I said that we will be purged, changed from Mortal to Immortal, or from Natural to supernatural? The point is the same. The way we are right now is not sufficient. We shall be changed. What is corrupt must be come incorruptible.
It would make me happy if you believed the word of God and favored it over your philosophy. It would make me happier still if you weren't defending lies that are blasphemous before the Lord. But it isn't about me being happy, it's about you getting it right. You call it a 'state', others call it a place. You call it a mere purification, the quotation I gave you earlier shows it as a short stay in Hell. It shows a bunch of people who basically say they'd rather be in Hell than purgatory. It doesn't get much more plain than 'I'd rather suffer the ills of the entire world - all that were ever suffered from beginning to end of time - than stay in Purgatory a day'. You equate God with this vile master torturer who burns people in agony and beats them down before they can partake in his 'glory'. Wow, sounds amazingly like a page out of the Necronomicon. But, the Satanists really do believe and practice such things. Satan's followers are made to suffer unbeleiveably for their master to prove their worth - at their master's hands. God allows us to go through trials and temptations while here; but, there is no such garbage anywhere in scripture that comes even close to what you speak of.
So if I kill someone and repent at the end of my life, am I forgiven? Did I repair the damage I did with my sin?
Point out in the scriptures where it says that God holds all these things against you after forgiving you for them. Point it out. This isn't a scriptural construct, it is a construct of philosophy. You are using reason to make your argument. Where is the scripture. Just because you think it sounds right doesn't make it either scriptural or of God. Back it up.
Oh, I see. You don't understand Purgatory or Catholicism at all. (Surprise, surprise.) Do you think that the Purging is of unrepented sins? You really don't get it.
No, I do. You are just taking a moment and looking about to see if anyone catches what you're doing and trying to slide with it. I've posted at least two direct quotations from Catholic literature that specifically state that Purgatory is a cleansing of sin. The word "venial" is applied as though it's supposed to mean anything. The Bible says all sin is the same; But, one is unforgiveable. It also says that sin can in no wise enter heaven. It also says that we are to keep ourselves ready and free of sin for we don't know the day of his return. Why is that said? I'm glad as anything you asked. Because it also said that sin condemns us to Hell. Wow, what a revelation. Keep yourselves free of sin because when he comes back, if you are in sin, your battleship is sunk! Whoda thunk it? The Bible says these things over and over again. Catholicism has their own version. I understand it quite well. It throws the afformentioned proclaimations of God's word out the window and sets up it's own system - whereby sin can be held at death and men can still get to heaven. How sweet that must be in all Catholic fantasies. It sounds good and loving doesn't it. You only have to be tortured to within an inch of your eternal soul too; but, for a price we can say mass for you or enrole you in the purgatory society for a mere $20k. Oh, heck, let's make it $40k. I think I read that someone was pushing that during wwII. I'll have to check that one. Yeah, we'll even sell you trinkets to help you minimize the amount of fiery torture you'll have to endure at the hands of your God before you are worthy to be anywhere near him. You may have been forgiven; but, not by us you haven't. God will exact a pound of flesh for all your misdeeds after you die if you haven't paid them all back before then. Blasphemy begets blashphemy begets sin against God's people.
After we repent and ask forgiveness from our sins we are forgiven. But there is still damage that must be repaired. Here on earth, or before we get to Heaven, the damage must be repaired.
And where is your scripture. Asked above. Assumption, speculation, reasoned logic and philosophy aren't God's word. Where's the scripture.
Is any of this you quoted saying what you said, that some Catholics wished to be in hell rather than go to Purgatory? No. When will you stop lying?
Perhaps I need to start attaching a label [metaphor in use]? I've no need to lie to defend scripture. I can quote it freely and in full context. I don't mind posting a whole chapter for context or having anyone read a whole chapter for context. Ya'll want to take a scalpel and remove everything but what serves your purposes. This stuff is quite damaging enough without having to make anything up. How about dealing with what's there instead of swiping it away and pretending it isn't what you were told it is. Or did I take you by surprise by backwardly destroying some of your statements with Catholic literature that bares you out for how creative you are in order to sell the point..
Oh no. Some competition for the consolation prize.
In James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works can faith save him.
Notice the question that James asks here. If a person says they believe in Jesus but there has been no change in their life and they aren't doing anything that would prove they are Christian, can their faith save them? This person has no works that accompany this belief. They don't live for God. Don't attend church, don't read the Word. When confronted with the truth of the bible they don't change thier path. They just go on the way they are, yet they say they believe. Can their faith save them? That is the question that is asked.
James 2:15-16 If a brother or sister be maked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled not withstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? James answers by giving an illustration.The point is that if a man says, "I believe in Jesus, but his life isn't any different, does he TRULY have faith? Can he truly be saved?
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. If a man says, I bieve, but he doesn't show any works, his life hasn't changed, he is still the same, just as much as a liar as he ever was, he has a dead faith.
Salvation is a free gift. When you understand exactly what Jesus did for you on the cross, and understand that you couldn't do it for yourself, and He didn't have to do it except that he loved us that much. and you accept the gift, it will change you life and you will WANT to do everything you can to be able to thank him and earn rewards to give back to him. But even those rewards are truly really his because without him having saved you you wouldn't have them.
Becky
I've had so many disappointments I'm simply not investing any more effort in man made churches without the direction of God. Even then I have been and would be true hell for any church to deal with because of my beliefs. If there is no structure for serious debate of scripture, which there isn't, I would be unable to sit still for ignorant teachings such as many of those here.
THE JUDGMENT OF TRUE BELIEVERS (1 Co. 3:11-15; 2 Co. 5:9-10; Ro. 14:10-12). The Purpose of this judgment. (1) It is for Christians, not the unsaved (1 Co. 3:1,11-12). (2) It is to examine the believer's service, not to determine his salvation (1 Co. 3:8,10,13). The believer is judged as a son and an heir (Ga. 4:6,7).
The Foundation for this judgment. The foundation is Jesus Christ and the eternal riches of Calvary (1 Co. 3:12). While the believer can fall on this Foundation; praise God, he cannot fall off! The Element of this judgment. The fire which shall try the believer's work is the Word of God (Je. 23:29; Jn. 12:48). The Nature of this judgment. The believer's judgment is not for punishment, but to manifest his service for reward or loss of reward. It is the judgment of an Olympic athlete or the worker on the job or a son in the family business. The materials of this judgment. The "wood, hay, and stubble" are associated with man and that which is of the world, temporal. The gold, silver, and precious stones" denote that which is of God, that which has eternal value. We note that it is not the size of one's labor, but its value before God which is important. Some things which are "gold, silver, and precious stones"--faithful church membership (1 Ti. 3:15; He. 10:25; 13:7,17); being a loving, providing husband (Ep. 5:25; 1 Ti. 5:8); being a submissive, serving wife (Ep. 5:22; Tit. 2:4); being an obedient child (Ep. 6:1); Gospel preaching and world evangelization (Mk. 16:15); training children in the way of God (Pr. 22:6); being filled with the Spirit (Ep. 5:18); seeking God (He. 11:6; Pr. 8:34-35); sacrificing for Christ (Mk. 10:29); approving excellent things (Ph. 1:10); being pure in spirit and body (2 Co. 7:1).
The Loss of this judgment. The loss will NOT be salvation (1 Co. 3:15) or one's riches in Christ (1 Pe. 1:3,4; Ro. 8:18; Col. 3:4). The loss will be crowns; reigning positions (2 Ti. 2:12; Re. 2:25-26; 3:21; 20:4). No one who appears at this judgment will lose salvation for poor service; he WILL lose rewards and suffer shame (1 Co. 3:15; 1 Jn. 2:28; 2 Jn. 8). Salvation is not gained through faithful service, but through faith in the blood of Christ (Ro. 3-4; Ep. 2:8-9). For the Christian, the judgment of God's wrath upon his sin is forever past. It was poured out upon the Savior on Calvary (Jn. 3:18,36).
The Grace of this judgment. It is God's nature to be gracious (Ps. 103:8-14), and His marvelous, free grace in Jesus Christ will be manifest in the believer's judgment. "In the counsels of God I am elect before the foundation of the world; hence I think that my own history will be detailed before the judgment seat, and, parallel with it, the history of the grace and of the mercy of God toward me. The why and the how we did this or that will be manifested then. For us the scene will be declarative, not judicial. We are not in the flesh before God; in His eyes, by His grace, we are dead. But then, if we have walked according to the flesh, we must see how we lost in blessing thereby, and what loss we have incurred. On the other hand, the ways of God towards us, all ways of wisdom, of mercy, and of grace, will be perfectly known and understood by us for the first time"
The Motivation of this judgment. The Judgment Seat of Christ is one of the greatest motivators in the Christian life. It should motivate the Christian to be spiritual (1 Co. 3:1-3), to be busy (1 Co. 3:9,10), and to be faithful (1 Co. 4:2-4).
Go thru and read the verses and it will come to life for you.
Hope this helps.
Becky
Salvation and eternal life are not one in the same. The Bible hinges all promises of God on obedience to him. Eternal life is such a promise. And it is garaunteed to only those who 'finish the race' to borrow from Paul. That, again, according to the Bible, is a matter of Obeying God and following his will - living righteously. To further flesh it out, it means being free of sin and constantly rooting out all areas in your life that may lead to sin and denying the sin nature. Be ye perfect even as Christ was perfect. He did it, and so can you - with his help. That's why he came - to prove it could be done and to provide the sacrifice for sin needed to get it done. Any Christian with Jesus in them who sins and tells you they don't know if they have or not is a liar. God convicts us of Sin. We know when we are doing wrong before we do it and after. We may not always understand what the sin is specifically - it is enough to know it's disobedience to God because He convicts and the sinner paid Him no attention.
It all goes back to John 10. If you aren't hearing and obeying the Lord - following His will - you have no promise. "There is therefore now no condemnation" What's the rest of it? Romans 8:1 "[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Lets look at the two things this says:
1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus who walk after the spirit.
2) There is condemnation for those in Christ Jesus who walk after the flesh.
Did that sink in, everyone? Walking after the spirit is being led by the spirit. Walking after the flesh is following the natural man: reason, philosophy, doing there own thing in what they think is right, disobedience... It's plain as day. No mention of sacrements. No mention of anything here except being in Christ (saved) and following the spirit of God. That John 10 thing again. No condemnation for the Sheep (those that hear and obey - following the will of God). If one can still be condemned, there is no promise of eternal life there! The two are diametrically opposed.
As far as rewards, Spiritual rewards are due those who do the Father's will. Note: this is not what others tell you to do; but, what God tells you to do - doing what others tell you to do is doing their will, not God's. And one must do the Father's will without seeking earthly recognition or reward for it. The Word says if you get your reward here, you have your reward already. There is plenty written in the Bible about rewards. Is there something more you need to know? And no - keeping the Commandments and practicing the beatitudes will not get you to heaven. Following God's Commandments is only part of Obedience. You have to follow His will too. You have to know Him to know His will. Jesus and the Apostles did it. Their recruits did it. You can too. You just have to stop relying on philosophies of men and get with the program.
Find a New testement church.
As far as man diappointing you. Of course he will he None of us are perfect, including you:), that's why we need each other to help keep us built up. And God will NEVER disappoint you, and He is the one telling you to go to church. 1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments, and his commandments are not grevious.
And about the rest of your response. Do you think you might be suffering just a little from the sin of pride. You might take a second look at this response and see it for what it is:)
Becky
I am suffering more from the sin of ignorance. I am ignorant of so many things yet find only those who are worse off than me. Hang in there, I am persuaded that God is going to move once again in this age and we will all have our chance to accept or reject Him. Be forewarned because I believe He will move as He has in the past the first to reject Him will be the religious. Keep your ears open.
The only thing you misrepresent as well as scripture is the words of anyone that argues against your beliefs. Mary is the mother of the physical form of Jesus. I have not argued that she is not the mother of Jesus. I have made the statement that she is not, as the implication of your statements would infer, the creator of God. And I stated that whether you intend to state her as the creator of God or not. I'm not letting such a blasphemous inferrance hang out there in the wind for others to abuse. If you have a problem with that, tough!
The Lutherans say one thing, the Calvinists another, the Anglicans another, the Baptists another, the non-denominational denominationalists yet another, etc... Will you say that they are all wrong and you are right, as Havoc does? That is what they each say about you.
Which even I have dealt with quite plainly and clearly. Let me say it again, lest you think you are getting by with something. Protestants in general are guilty of the same vile garbage Catholicism, Budhism, Satanism, Taoism, etc are guilty of - following philosophy. The difference is that Catholicism and much of Protestantism dip their philosophy in Christianity like one would dip a cookie in Milk and then want to call the Cookie "Milk". Catholics group together around the cookie and damn and kick the milk for anything their worth, lest the milk saturate and crumble the cookie. Ya'll defend your philosophies at any cost. You dip only as it pleases you to do so and heaven and earth tremble should you ever, oh to think it, drink the milk and set the cookie aside - woe. You can't have it both ways. You can drink the milk or eat the cookie. The milk may make your stomache a little sour; but, it's good for you. The cookie is sweet but it'll rot your teath and poison your body. Woe. But you hold on to your bags of cookies and won't drink the untainted milk. You have to pour liquer or chocolate in the milk before you can stomach it because after all the cookies, you're lactose intolerant!! But you do have purgatory pills to keep the stomache fooled.
Read the entire petition, and sign it online at:
http://www.onejerusalem.org/Petition.asp
Someone sent this in email. Thought some would like to check it out :)
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad [2 Cor. 5:10].
This is the judgment seat, literally, the beµma. There is still a beµma in Corinth. This was the place where the judges of the city would meet the citizens and would judge them for certain things—there was no question of life or death. At the judgment seat of Christ only believers will appear. It is not a judgment of the believer’s sins, which Christ fully atoned for on the cross. The judgment is to see whether you are going to receive a reward or not.
When Paul says, “We must all appear,” remember that he is writing to believers. All we believers will be judged, that we may receive the things done in the body. We will be judged on the way we lived the Christian life, how we have lived in these bodies down here. When we go into His presence, we will be finished with these old bodies. The question He will ask is how we used these bodies. How did we live down here?
Paul faces this question when he writes to the Philippians. He says in Philippians 1:21, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.” Then he talks of his desire to go to be with Christ but also of his desire to live longer so that he can minister to the Philippians. He wants to stay so that he can preach the gospel of Christ a little longer.
You see, he felt like the little boy years ago in southland. The preacher asked one night, “How many want to go to heaven?” Everybody put up his hand except that one boy. The preacher looked down at him and said, “Don’t you want to go to heaven?” The boy answered, “Sure, I want to go to heaven, but I thought you was gettin’ up a load for tonight.” Paul didn’t want to go. He said he wanted to stay in his body and preach a little longer. He wanted Christ to be magnified in his body that he might be accepted of Him and that he might receive a reward.
This is the way I feel. I want to stay in this body and do as much for the Lord as I possibly can. Here is the first motivation for believers: We are all going to appear before the judgment seat of Christ, and we will answer to the Lord for our lives. We are going to give a report to Him. Let me make it very clear that this is not the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:11–15 where only the unsaved will stand. If you are a believer, your name is written in the Book of Life, and you have eternal life. However, you will stand before the beµma, the judgment seat of Christ, to be judged for rewards. You and I will stand before Him. This should motivate us to serve Him acceptably. Then when we come into His presence, He will be able to say, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant.”
BigMack
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God [Rom. 14:10–12].
“Why dost thou judge thy brother?” You remember that the Lord Jesus said to that bunch of Pharisees who wanted to stone an adulterous woman, “… He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her” (John 8:7). And not one of those boys threw any stones that day. My friend, you and I need to recognize that we have to give account of ourselves to Him. I’ll be honest with you, that disturbs me a little. I am wondering how I am going to tell Him about certain things. So I can’t sit in judgment upon you; I’m worried about BigMack
BigMack
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