The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[SoothingDave]

That's blasphemy and you know it!!! Please cease your erronious ways. I can't believe what I'm seeing on this thread which has obviously declined in content and character.

Could you be a little more specific? I say a lot of things, and even the post you responded to has me saying several things. Thanks.

SD

[american colleen]

"Did he? Others have very well explained this before. There is nothing incumbent in the keys that every other apostle doesn't also demonstrate in their ministries. If it was given only to Peter, then why is it that All the others have the Keys?

I'd very much like if you could provide me with the other examples of those who have explained this before. I must have missed it if this issue has been adressed. Thanks.

No, the other Apostles were given the power to "bind and loose" - nowhere in the Bible that I am aware of were all the Apostles given the Keys. "Bind and loose" and the "keys" are two separate things in the Bible.

[Havoc]

Rather than continuing on with me saying "yes it is," let's just stop this particular line of questioning.

Feels like a merrigoround. You say it, we refute it, you say it again. Thank you for not saying it again.

"..a legend and an outta work bumb look a lot alike, Daddy!"

sorry, just like that quote - may do it in red next time.

[vmatt]

No, the other Apostles were given the power to "bind and loose" - nowhere in the Bible that I am aware of were all the Apostles given the Keys. "Bind and loose" and the "keys" are two separate things in the Bible.

What are the keys?

[ksen]

vic: That's blasphemy and you know it!!! Please cease your erronious ways. I can't believe what I'm seeing on this thread which has obviously declined in content and character.

SD: Could you be a little more specific? I say a lot of things, and even the post you responded to has me saying several things. Thanks.

Yeah, SD says a lot of blasphemous things. It would help to be a bit more specific. ;^)

-ksen

[Havoc]

No, the other Apostles were given the power to "bind and loose" - nowhere in the Bible that I am aware of were all the Apostles given the Keys. "Bind and loose" and the "keys" are two separate things in the Bible.

Matthew 16:19 "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

You need to look at the Greek. Caps begin the thought. Note the Cap at the beginning of the verse, note it's absence in the second "and", the third "and" is lower case as well. This is a continuing thought, not a differentiation. That is why a colon is used in the translation - to show that one idea is stated and then fleshed out. The keys are the binding and loosing. And they are not exclusive. What was that verse that was quoted by Jesus about making us all "judges". Some understand. Some merely try to keep up appearances.

[Wordsmith]

Church, Papacy and schism, a theological enquiry by Philip Sherrard

Great choice, Colleen. I highly recommend most anything by Sherrard. Another good professional historian from the Orthodox perspective is Georges Florovsky. Also, recommended by The_Reader_David a few days ago, Jaroslav Pelikan.

[al_c]

Don't know why I never thought about posting this FYI before ...

This is for my fellow Catholic brothers (or any NCs if interested). I've been involved with this organization for a few years now, both at the national level and locally. If you haven't already heard of St. Joseph's Covenant Keepers (sort of a Catholic version of Promise Keepers), check out their web site at dads.org

Lot's of good info for new dads, old dads, or any other man looking to broaden his spiritual life and that of his family.

[DouglasKC]

I am wondering why you think Jesus did not give the "Keys to the Kingdom" to all of the apostles? Why did he hand them over to just one of them?

What, exactly, are the "Keys to the Kingdom"?

Wouldn't they have to be something that unlocked the kingdom.?
Wouldn't that denote the fact that the kingdom was locked closed?
Wasn't man locked out of the kingdom...denied commune with God because of sinfullness, until the sacrifice of Christ?

Wouldn't the "keys" to the kingdom be that the messiah had come and that his sacrifice was going to open the door?

Mat 16:19 And I will give the keys of the kingdom of Heaven to you. And whatever you may bind on earth shall occur, having been bound in Heaven, and whatever you may loose on earth shall occur, having been loosed in Heaven.
Key 1: Jesus confirms that he is the messiah:

Mat 16:20 Then He warned His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

Key 2: Jesus tells them what needs to happen in order for the kingdom to be opened:

Mat 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

In other words, Jesus, gave (revealed) the keys to the kingdom.

What else could the "keys" be and how could a mere man hold them?

[malakhi]

It is also interesting to note that when Jesus referenced the Hebrew Scriptures He seemed to divide them the same way that the Masoretic text did, i.e. the Law, the Writings, and the Prophets.

I hadn't made that connection. Good point.

[Joyful Wisdom]

What are the keys? They are copper things that open doors. I think the ones specifically mention in the NT are a set of 3 skeleton keys that open a secret compartment under the Chair of Peter were they keep all the really secret archives that disprove Catholism. :>)

Please see smiley face above

[OLD REGGIE]

The tale of SpinningDave off on another of his "spins".

(SD to JHavard) "First, congratulations on helping Havoc kill that strawman. Way to go."

(Havoc to SD)Sorry, didn't create one and didn't kill one.

(SD to Havoc) Hmmm. What did you say?

"Jesus didn't pick a successor because no one can succeed Him. He isn't dead. Long live the King!"

(What Havoc said -unedited version) You haven't established in scripture that any man has been given the Place of Christ at the head of the Church in any capacity - regardless of what you wish to make it look as though Peter might be - or anyone else for that matter. Jesus didn't pick a successor because no one can succeed Him. He isn't dead. Long live the King!
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(SD) This is making the implication that Catholics believe that Peter and the popes are "successors" to Jesus. And that we beleive that Jesus is dead.

(Reggie) Of course, Havoc never implied that anyone believed Jesus was dead. Another "Dave Straw Man".
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(SD) That's a strawman, dude. The Pope is not a successor to Jesus and we do not teach that Jesus is dead.

(Reggie) The strawman is Dave's, only Dave's. However, there are some Catholic sources, just as "official" as SpinningDave which teach otherwise.
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Papal Quotes

Vatican I devotion ascribed to the pope the title "King of Kings" and "'Supreme Ruler of the World." This excessive veneration included appellations such as "Vice-God of Humanity" and "Exalted King of the Universe."

The Vatican Newspaper La Civilta Cattolica recorded that the pope was the "Mind of God" and pontificated that "when the pope meditates, it is God Who thinks in him."

Bishop Bereaud of Tulle, France, wrote that "the pope was the Word of God made flesh, living in our midst."

John Bosco reminded us that the pope was "God on earth" while triumphantly proclaiming that "Jesus has placed the pope higher than the prophets, than John the Baptist, and than all the angels." He concluded, to no one's surprise, that "Jesus has put the pope on the same level as God"! (John Bosco, Meditazioni, Vol. 1: 2nd ed., pp. 89-90)

Moreri (Roman Theologian): "To make war against the pope is to make war against God, seeing that the pope is God and God is the pope."

Nicolaus de Tudeschis, in "Commentaria" (lvi, 34): "The pope can do all things God can do."

Pope Leo XIII: "We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty." (June 20, 1894; Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII: Benziger Brothers, "Reunion of Christendom", p. 304)

Pope (St.) Pius X: "The pope is not only representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of the flesh. Does the pope speak? It is Jesus Christ Himself Who speaks."
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Not to be outdone, Pope Pius XI declared: "You know that I am the Holy Father, the representative of God on earth, the Vicar of Christ, which means that I am God on earth." (Butler, Scriptural Truths for Roman Catholics: Dr. B. Brewer, Mission to Catholics, Int.)

...and in modern times...

Lest anyone think that things have changed from those triumphal days of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, they have only to read the words uttered recently by Cardinal John O'Connor of New York: "The Holy Father is the true successor of Christ on earth." (Sermon, St. Patrick's Cathedral, New York, March 1987)

Until the ritual was terminated by Pope John Paul I, when the triple crown was placed on the head of a new Pope at his "coronation" the officiating cardinal proclaimed: "Receive the tiara adorned with three crowns, and know that thou art the Father of Princes and Kings, Ruler of the World; the Vicar of Our Saviour Jesus Christ..."

The celebrated New York Catechism states clearly and proclaims, somewhat embarrassingly, that, "The pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth... the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." (Exact Translation)

MOUNT NEBO, Jordan, March 20, 2000 (Reuters): "The Pope is the king of the whole world" Caroline Neemah, a 78-year-old Christian resident of Madaba, as she waited for the Pope's motorcade. Even the common Catholic pilgrim has a distorted sense who is King.

Oh, Oh! This is an Orthodox Site
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Now I know these aren't "official" Dave. They are at as least as "official" as what you teach.

Spin away. Old SpinningDave.

[SoothingDave]

18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Context, Havoc. Jesus is only talking to Peter at this moment. Only to him does he give the keys.

You need to look at the Greek. Caps begin the thought. Note the Cap at the beginning of the verse, note it's absence in the second "and", the third "and" is lower case as well. This is a continuing thought, not a differentiation. That is why a colon is used in the translation - to show that one idea is stated and then fleshed out. The keys are the binding and loosing. And they are not exclusive.

Interesting argument. So the "keys" only represent this power to bind and loose. Which you then further claim is meant for all Christians. You certainly are making a lot out of a colon, a colon which isn't even evident in the RSV. And considering colons aren't in the original Greek anyway....

SD

[malakhi]

Now I will agree that one cannot assert that the prophet was speaking of a virgin technically on the basis of the word almah alone, but you cannot lightly dismiss the word as having no possible reference to a virgin at all.

I think this is a good point. I have never asserted that an almah cannot be a virgin. The same relationship holds in the English translation. "Young woman" doesn't mean 'virgin', but a young woman can certainly be a virgin. At the same time, though, almah can refer to a 'young woman' who is married, or even a mother. So the simple use of the word does not imply that the woman must be a virgin.

As a final point, I think the context of Isaiah 7 shows that the young woman in question was not in fact a virgin. Otherwise, you would have to believe that the birth prophecied to King Ahaz was a virgin birth, something that I don't think most Christians are prepared to argue.

[Uri’el-2012]

Invincibly Ignorant;angelo;others

NASB Matthew 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which translated means, "God with us."
NIV Matthew 1:23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"--which means, "God with us."
GNT Matthew 1:23 ivdou. h` parqe,noj evn gastri. e[xei kai. te,xetai ui`o,n( kai. kale,sousin to. o;noma auvtou/ VEmmanouh,l( o[ evstin meqermhneuo,menon meqV h`mw/n o` qeo,jÅ
W&H Matthew 1:23 VIdou.( h` parqe,noj evn gastri. e[xei kai. te,xetai ui`o,n( kai. kale,sousin to. o;noma auvtou/ VEmmanouh,l( o[ evstin meqermhneuo,menon( MeqV h`mw/n o` Qeo,jÅ

NASB Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.
NIV Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
LXX Isaiah 7:14 dia. tou/to dw,sei ku,rioj auvto.j u`mi/n shmei/on ivdou. h` parqe,noj evn gastri. e[xei kai. te,xetai ui`o,n kai. kale,seij to. o;noma auvtou/ Emmanouhl

Transliterated Isaiah 7:14 läkën yiTTën ´ádönäy hû´ läkem ´ôt hinnË hä`almâ härâ wüyöleºdet Bën wüqärä´t šümô `immäºnû ´ël

IS 7:14 Hebrew Old Testament (4th Ed.)

hNEåhi tAa+ ~k,Þl' aWh± yn"ïdoa] !Te’yI !kel'û

`lae(ƒWnM'î[i Amßv. tar'îq'w> !Beê td,l,äyOw> ‘hr'h' hm'ªl.[;h

chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

The problem with so many of these so-called 'prophecies' of Jesus is that they don't make sense when read closely and in context.

They sound exactly like this!:

Isaiah 13:10 - For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising and the moon will not shed its light. 11. I will punish the world for it's evil..."

Prophecy against babylon fulfilled by the Medo-Persians! Did these astrological events happen? Was it the "whole world" which was punished or the Babylonians? After all, Daniel interpreted this in a dream of Babylonia's king. They were kingdom 2 of 4.

Christ said this:
Matthew 24:29 - "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken;

In the same manner, fulfilled by the Roman army, the 4th kingdom of Daniel.

Clouds:

Psalms 68:4 - Sing to God, sing praises to his name; lift up a song to him who rides upon the clouds; his name is the LORD, exult before him!

Jeremiah 4:13 - Behold, he comes up like clouds, ["like manner" (Acts 1)] his chariots like the whirlwind; his horses are swifter than eagles--woe to us, for we are ruined!

I will not post all of Christ's "coming in the clouds references, but THIS is the reason the High priest and Christ had this exchange:

Matt 26:63 But Jesus was silent. And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." 65 Then the high priest tore his robes, and said, "He has uttered blasphemy. Why do we still need witnesses? You have now heard his blasphemy.

The blasphamy was because Christ not only said He was the Christ (because in your Jewish line of thinking, being the messiah was not the same as being God as you have stated to me before), but the blasphemy was because He told the High Priest that HE would see the Judgment prophesied by Jeremiah. Only God could carry out that judgment against Israel, but Christ told Ciaphas that HE would carry it out against Ciaphas himself and his generation. As Jesus did in Matthew 23.

[OLD REGGIE]

These kids today take no pride in their work. We need a good war to ship 'em off to when they screw up too much.

No smiley? This isn't funny under any cirstumstances. Only someone who hasn't been "shipped off to a 'good' war could make such an asinine statement.

[SoothingDave]

What, exactly, are the "Keys to the Kingdom"?

They are the things which open and close things. when you give someone your keys, you are entrusting your possessions to them, making them a caretaker of what is yours. If I go on vacation and ask you to feed my cat and fish and get the mail and exercise the gaskets in my toilet, I give you my keys. I am giving you, not ownership, but a stewardship of my property until I return.

This is what Jesus did to Peter.

Wouldn't they have to be something that unlocked the kingdom.?

Not exclusively.

Wouldn't that denote the fact that the kingdom was locked closed?

Not exclusivey.

Wasn't man locked out of the kingdom...denied commune with God because of sinfullness, until the sacrifice of Christ?

Yeah.

Wouldn't the "keys" to the kingdom be that the messiah had come and that his sacrifice was going to open the door?

That is the Gospel message. The focus on the Gospel and the spiritualizing of the keys into being some type of "answer to a puzzle" is a typical misunderstanding of the Scripture. You can certainly think as you do, and nothing you say is really in error. You are just missing the larger picture of what it means when a superior gives you his keys and tells you to care for his pets while he is gone.

SD

[malakhi]

Great graphic, Reg! I'm hereby stealing it for future use...

[SoothingDave]

No smiley? This isn't funny under any cirstumstances. Only someone who hasn't been "shipped off to a 'good' war could make such an asinine statement.

I should have put a smiley on there. My "grumpy old man" attitude should have been evident from my "these kids today" comment, but I should have been more explicit.

SD