The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[malakhi]

As for the divinity of Jesus, the doctrine of the incarnation was hardly something of which Jewish leaders would be aware.

You don't think the Jewish leaders of the late first century C.E. were aware that the Christians claimed that Jesus was divine?

[saradippity]

Thanks for the link Angelo.I think it is a very interesting and informative post that provides all readers with food for thought.I think the upshot will be a great cleansing in the Roman Catholic Church and will also result in a poorer Church that will then flourish. Pope John Paul II has long talked about the 21st century as one that will see a "great blossoming of Christianity",I pray this is a sign.

I understand why you may not look at the foregoing with the same anticipation that I do but recognize it as a consequence of our diverse backgrounds and heritage and in my book thats the way it is,for now.

[al_c]

Just a little fyi ... the way I learned it is that the whole "40" thing was just a way of saying "a very long time." And before someone throws out the old standard "but if you learned that in the Catholic Church, you're wrong" thing ... I'll remind you that I was raised in a Disciples of Christ denomination church and converted to the Catholic Church in my 20s so I didn't learn anything in a Catholic school. As far as which church taught me that ... I'll just keep that one to myself.

[SoothingDave]

Why do you believe it to be idiomatic?

I'm with al_c and trad_anglican here. I believe it to be idiomatic because that is what I was taught, or what I picked up through my own reading. As far as I knew, it was common knowledge that Hebrew used phrases like this to indicate indefinite periods of time. So why I believe it is because someone or something taught it to me.

(Hey, let's as angelo what he thinks.)

Now why do you believe that it is not idiomatic?

SD

[ksen]

Just a little fyi ... the way I learned it is that the whole "40" thing was just a way of saying "a very long time." And before someone throws out the old standard "but if you learned that in the Catholic Church, you're wrong" thing ... I'll remind you that I was raised in a Disciples of Christ denomination church and converted to the Catholic Church in my 20s so I didn't learn anything in a Catholic school. As far as which church taught me that ... I'll just keep that one to myself.

But if you learned that in the Catholic Church/Disciples of Christ, you're wrong. ;^)

-ksen

[trad_anglican]

Do you default to figurative interpretation when you read the Bible or any book for that matter??

No, I don't default to anything. To me, it is obviously figurative, as obvious as seventy times 7. When Paul says he received 40 stripes save one, I believe he really did get 39 lashes.

[malakhi]

Whew! I'm happy I didn't have to do five decades.

LOL! I guess its been a while since you've been to confession. When I last went to confession several years ago, the priest told me to say an Act of Contrition and then go buy myself an ice cream. Its the "kinder, gentler" RCC today, dontcha know?

[trad_anglican]

I hear you can buy a 3 record set from 700 Club to help you to become a prophet in 3 easy lessons. :)

LOL. Thanks, Mack. Maybe I'll find a used one on Ebay.

[al_c]

LOL :o)

[malakhi]

Well, up to now everything has been all right, but now,..... I'mmmmm baaaack. hahaha JH

I thought maybe you and the missus had gone for your customary walk and just forgotten to go back home. ;o)

Good to see you, JH!

[malakhi]

So then God's appointment of a Priesthood was facetitious?

Uhhhh, what?

[SoothingDave]

When I last went to confession several years ago, the priest told me to say an Act of Contrition and then go buy myself an ice cream.

But he limited you to a single scoop, right? Made you get a cake cone?

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

In other places Eusebius disputes the opinion that Revelation was written by the Apostle John. And this despite the fact Irenaeus (who claims to have known Polycarp, who knew John) was certain that the Apostle wrote It. For some reason, obviously compelling to Eusebius, he felt justified in contradicting Irenaeus’s emphatic statements regarding the Johannine authorship of Revelation. Eusebius’s countering of Irenaeus’s witness in this area surely indicates that this great chronicler of the Church did not conceive of Irenaeus as above reproach on historical matters.

Might be a good idea to let everyone know from where this cut and paste comes from.

[malakhi]

Please define for me what "literal" and "figurative" mean then. SD

Clearly, JohnnyM is using a figurative definition of 'literal'.

;o)

[Invincibly Ignorant]

In Against Heresies we read a very unusual historical statement: For how had He disciples, if He did not teach? And how did He teach, if He had not a Master’s age? For He came to Baptism as one Who had not yet fulfilled thirty years, but was beginning to be about thirty years old; (for so Luke, who bath signified His years, bath set it down; Now Jesus, when He came to Baptism, began to be about thirty years old:) and He preached for one year only after His Baptism: complet- ing His thirtieth year He suffered, while He was still young, and not yet come to riper age. But the age of 30 years is the first of a young man’s mind, and that it reaches even to the fortieth year, everyone will allow: but after the fortieth and fiftieth year, it begins to verge towards elder age: which our Lord was of when He taught, as the Gospel and all the Elders witness, who in Asia conferred with John the Lord’s disciple, to the effect that John had delivered these thingsunto them: for he abode with them until the times of Trajan. And some of them saw not only John, but others also of the Apostles, and had this same account from them, and witness to the aforesaid rela- tion. Whom ought we rather to believe? These, being such as they are, or Ptolemy, who never beheld the Apostles, nor ever in his dreams attained to any vestige of an Apostle?

All I can say is "wow".

[trad_anglican]

Clearly, JohnnyM is using a figurative definition of 'literal'.

I'm not absolutely sure, but if I understand the rules correctly, he can do that as long as he's not speaking prophetically. Calvinball, anyone?

[malakhi]

After the giving of the Tabernacle, did God ever accept sacrifices done by any-old-body done any-old-where?

I'm not talking about temple sacrifice, I'm talking about prayer. You surely don't think Jews can only pray at the Western Wall?

Just because God allowed their existence doesn't mean that He blessed the goings on. He never commanded the Synagogues to be set up

Hmmm, when did God command that Christians build churches?

Didn't the synagogue get its start from the Jews of the Babylonian Captivity?

As a more structured institution, yes. The scriptures were of course studied before then, and not just in the Temple.

[trad_anglican]

sorry, I forgot to say :^)

[JohnnyM]

"What is this factual basis you speak of?"

Ezekiel 4:6
When you have completed these, you shall lie down a second time, but on your right side and bear the iniquity of the house of Judah; I have assigned it to you for forty days, a day for each year.

So here we have precedent of a day signifying a year in terms of prophecy. Now we have the benefit of hindsight on the issue and know for a fact that there was no fulfillment of this prophecy 70 weeks (490 days) after Daniel received it. We can, however, make a strong case using weeks as 7 years to pinpoint the coming of Christ. A more strict translation of weeks would actually result in the term "seven's" which would give more foundation to the the 490 years translation. So an interpretation of the 70 weeks using years is a valid exegesis using Scripture.

JM

[malakhi]

How goes it with the little one, my friend?