The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[SoothingDave]

we have agreed that there is a Purification process that occurs after death. This is the state of existence we Catholics call Purgatory.

Why is it I've never seen that parallel drawn in Catholic Literature?

In your post 295 you quoted:

Like 'heaven' or 'hell', the word purgatory refers to a place and a state. Catholics believe that purgatory exists to purge those souls who are not yet pure enough for heaven and its vision of God but who have not died in a state of serious (mortal) sin. ...In a word, purgatory exits to make saints who will be ready for the purity of God's presence. If one does not succeed in becomming a saint on earth but yet escapes eternal hell, he is purified in purgatory.."

This pretty clearly states that Purgatory is a state of purification after death. Well, the "death" part is assumed. I don't know why you've never seen this.

Why is it that the change is instantaneous in the Bible and glorifying while Catholicism paints purgatory as the next best thing to hell.

Why is this "instantaneous" thing considered to be a state of suffering? Because we will be aware of the change happening. Our selves, literally, will be ripped apart as the good is separated from the bad. We will become painfully aware of the limitations of our souls, how much impurity remains after a lifetime of trying to be pure. It will be anguish to consider how much God wants for us and how often we had rejected it. It may be "instantaneous" (whatever time means), but it will be experienced.

It will also be a state of both sorrow for our shortcomings and joy for our near arrival in the Perfect Bliss of Heaven.

Before you deny the latter, you'd do well to read some Catholic literature in which numerous Catholics throughout time, including the likes of Cyril, are quoted as saying they'd rather spend time in Hell than in purgatory.

I'm sure you took that our of context or did not understand the rhetorical point they wer making. It probably had something to do with the acute realization of our unworthiness. In hell the soul can feel, much like in prison today, that he got "ripped off" that God isn't being "fair." In Purgatory, we will be made clean, each piece of dirt on our souls will be removed and examined. The ultimate goal of perfection is sweet, but the actual process of being cleaned may be even more painful than simply being damned.

The Catholic purgatory is a spiritual pennitentiary. The Bible paints no such picture - nor does it even mention it. Yet, Catholicism has defined it to the point of telling such intricacies as how long one might expect, on average, to spend in purgatory.

No it hasn't. Penances were often given to be served in durations of time. And indulgences were granted in durations of time. But Purgatory was never taught to be in durations of time. Surely to explain the process of cleansing we may need to speak of "time" spent in Purgatory, but that is only a fault in the language. God isn't really "above" us in Heaven but we talk that way cause it's the only way we have.

SD

[SoothingDave]

A couple of times this morning, after I hit the post button, it took me back to the discussion, but my post was not there. So I hit the back button and then post again, then my post appeared. Weird.

That happened to me a number of times this week.

SD

[JohnnyM]

The story of the talents can also attest to the idea of reward or responsibility in heaven.

Matt 25:14-28
"For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money. Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, "Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.' "His master said to him, "Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.' ""Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, "Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.' ""His master said to him, "Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.' "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, "Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.' "But his master answered and said to him, "You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. "Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. "Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'

He says he will put him (the slave) in charge of many things. This applies to the age to come. If we are faithful with the things He has given us, He will put us in charge of more things. These things will be revealed in the age to come.

JM

[SoothingDave]

Oh, Jones will have the roof finished. Unlike Landry, Jones doesn't care if God wants to watch the Cowboys. ;o)

Does he really want a dome? The bane of true sports everywhere. I say let's play the Super Bowl in State College in January and separate the men from the boys. Sissy boy Southern teams don't want to play in real man's weather. Can't run the West Coast offense in Buffalo in December. You can run the Bus. The Houston Oilers couldn't make it to the Super Bowl in the 70s cause they couldn't win in 3 Rivers in January.

Have you seen this months Texas Monthly? Cover story is "Is Jerry Jones the Devil?"

Surprisingly, there's not a lot of newsstands that carry that journal here. But, yes, Jerry Jones is the Devil. He makes Al Davis seem like a team player.

SD

[Havoc]

I'm going to have to write a letter to WFB and get him to clarify that modern English usage rules do not apply to translated historical texts.

Why don't you ask him if he knows where the "original" Aramaic is while you're at it.. LOL

[al_c]

"For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money. Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, "Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.' "His master said to him, "Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.' ""Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, "Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.' ""His master said to him, "Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.' "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, "Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.' "But his master answered and said to him, "You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. "Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. "Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'

Notice that the first to were "put in charge of many things." Didn't specify how much, exactly. Was it the same amount for both? Also, the last one did not increase his master's gift so he was given nothing. To me, this parable tells us that we should not just sit on our laurels in our own Christianity but get out there and increase His numbers. I don't take it as saying there will be different categories of Heaven.

[SoothingDave]

Why don't you ask him if he knows where the "original" Aramaic is while you're at it..

WFB is old, but he's not that old. Or else National Review's motto would surely be "Standing Athwart the Reformation -- Yelling 'Stop!'"

SD

[al_c]

The Houston Oilers couldn't make it to the Super Bowl in the 70s cause they couldn't win in 3 Rivers in January.

So what's Pittsburgh's excuse for not being able to win in the south?

[JohnnyM]

I wouldn't use term categories of heaven. It's more like varying degrees of reward or responsibility (in charge of). If we are faithful with what he has given us while we are here, then we will be rewarded once we "enter into His joy".

JM

[SoothingDave]

So what's Pittsburgh's excuse for not being able to win in the south?

I don't know that I've seen a particular habit in the south. I guess it depends on what you call the "south." We are typically horrendous on the Left Coast (Seattle on down) and we used to not play well on grass (except for Bam Morris).

SD

[al_c]

If we are faithful with what he has given us while we are here, then we will be rewarded once we "enter into His joy".

I can't argue with that statement. Sort of like storing up treasures in Heaven.

[JohnnyM]

we used to not play well on grass (except for Bam Morris).

Hahhaaha

JM

[saradippity]

So what happened to the man whose talent was taken from him and given to others that had many? And I wonder if there aren't some around who took the original talent and didn't save it but lost it,where would they be? As a Catholic I would surmise the first man might be in Purgatory for a while, and the second for longer,maybe even in Hell. What do you think the "talent"was/is?

[saradippity]

Yes, God knows everything.

[OLD REGGIE]

Do you wonder why the don't?

This doesn't qualify as "question of the week" but it gets a consolation prize.

[vmatt]

oh my gosh dude. That Scripture is totally OUT OF CONTEXT!!!

No it's not. I used it in context of a resurrection. Paul was saying that if in this life only we have hope, without a resurrection into another life, then we are most miserable. My point is that true existance doesn't begin until our own resurrection when we will know Him in that life as we are known by Him in this life. He already knows who those will be and has been known to prepare places for those who are going to Him.

1 Corinthians 15

32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

[dignan3]

I won't mention the priest who once commented "Beer - the Eighth Sacrament"

I thought Bingo was the eighth Sacrament. :>)

Pray for John Paul II

[SoothingDave]

I thought Bingo was the eighth Sacrament.

For women, maybe.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

I wonder what angelo and Steven are doing? Do you think they're itching? They certainly missed some thought provoking dialog yesterday.

I wonder how they'll ever catch up. Yesterday, I took the afternoon off (from my retired "duties") to play golf and stop at the 19th hole. This morning I had lost several hundred posts. It took hours to catch up. How do you, who work for a living, manage to keep up?

[vmatt]

As a Catholic I would surmise the first man might be in Purgatory for a while, and the second for longer,maybe even in Hell.

Come out of it. There is no purgatory or hell.