Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
That is a good perception. "Of course it is horrible to kill innocents and totally against the teaching of the Prophet. But maybe now the US will look at her policies against the Palestinian people."
You are right. I haven't seen a simple statement.
SD
Just what Nate believes Dave. A pretreiest catholic, hey Nate you won Dave over. :)
BigMack
That is a problem. Don't worry, when we get to Heaven I will humbly accept your apology without rubbing anything in. ;^)
-ksen
Well since the book of Revelation was written about 20 years after the destruction of the Temple it wasn't much of a revelation then.
-ksen
Have you looked at the world lately? If what you say is true then He is doing a terrible job.
-ksen
#1, is there a copyright on the book in your Bible, or are you relying on external evidence? I don't recall the dating of the book being finalized.
#2, so what? A book using mystical language to explain recent events to worried and scattered communities is not a bad thing.
SD
What does modern America have to do with Christianity?
I thought we were a judean-christian nation? That is why we want to post the 10 commandments and allow prayer in school.
What? Last time I looked the US wasn't killing any palestinian people. And Israel's killing comes only in retaliation for palistenians targeting civilians.
SD
What if the "Holy Roman Empire" Hadn't been defeated, put down and pinched into a peace of land in Italy - landlocked from the world as a nation within a nation? What if we didn't have history books that told us everything instead of Just the Catholic side of it? What if nobody had ever caught all the forgeries, half truths, etc employed by the RCC in it's "pontifications" about it's divine right to rule? There are a lot of if's out there.
What if the "Holy Roman Empire" Hadn't been defeated, put down and pinched into a peace of land in Italy - landlocked from the world as a nation within a nation? What if we didn't have history books that told us everything instead of Just the Catholic side of it? What if nobody had ever caught all the forgeries, half truths, etc employed by the RCC in it's "pontifications" about it's divine right to rule? There are a lot of if's out there.
Havoc! There you are, old boy. I went almost a whole half day without a blistering non sequitur. Thanks for the post.
SD
Oh ok. Sorry.
Tell me, Why doesn't the catholic Church have authority over Europe as a civil authority. I know how the story goes, just want to know if you can tell it.
Looks like Havoc's been studying a new topc. I can't wait to hear his answers. Myself, I would say to the question "why doesn't the Catholic Churc have authority over Europe as a civil authority?" that Europe opted to overthrow the Church and go to hell in a handbasket.
Or I could say that the time that the world needed the Church to provide civil order had come and gone and the Church is now free to focus on the truly important spiritual issues.
SD
This is a unproven, erroneous and IMO untrue statement but nevertheless will be repeated and believed ad infinitum.
From your own church’s encyclopedia:
TIME AND PLACE The Seer himself testifies that the visions he is about to narrate were seen by him whilst in Patmos. "I John . . . was in the island which is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus" (i. 9). Patmos is one of the group of small islands close to the coast of Asia Minor, about twelve geographical miles from Ephesus. Tradition, as Eusebius tells us, has handed down that John was banished to Patmos in the reign of Domitian for the sake of his testimony of God's word (Hist. Eccl., III, 18). He obviously refers to the passage "for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus" (i, 9). It is true that the more probable meaning of this phrase is, "in order to hear the word of God", etc., and not "banished because of the word of God'', etc., (cf. i. 2). But it was quite natural that the Seer should have regarded his banishment to Patmos as prearranged by Divine Providence that in the solitude of the island he might hear God's word. The tradition recorded by Eusebius finds confirmation in the words of the Seer describing himself as "a brother and partaker in tribulation'' (i, 9). Irenaeus places the Seer's exile in Patmos at the end of Domitian's reign. " Paene sub nostro saeculo ad finem Domitiani imperii" (Adv. Haer., V. 4). The Emperor Domitian reigned A.D. 81-96. In all matters of Joannine tradition Irenaeus deserves exceptional credit. His lifetime bordered upon the Apostolic age and his master, St. Polycarp, had been among the disciples of St. John. Eusebius, chronicling the statement of Irenaeus without any misgivings, adds as the year of the Seer's exile the fourteenth of Domitian's reign. St. Jerome also, without reserve or hesitation, follows the same tradition. "Quarto decimo anno, secundam post Neronem persecutionem movente Domitiano, in Patmos insulam relegatus, scripsit Apocalypsim" (Ex libro de Script. Eccl). Against the united testimony of these three witnesses of tradition the statement of Epiphanius placing the Seer's banishment in the reign of Claudius, A.D. 41-54, appears exceedingly improbable (Haer., li, 12, 33).
So unless you have some irrefutable evidence otherwise, Revelations was written about 90-95 AD.
#2, so what? A book using mystical language to explain recent events to worried and scattered communities is not a bad thing.
The events in Revelation that you are referring to were not something that occurred in the recent past. The things were to be in the future.
Revelation 1:
[19] Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;Revelation 4:
[1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Everything that is written from chapter 4 on is a record of future events, the Temple destruction was a past event.
-ksen
The Orthodox interpretation of St. Cyprian's "Chair of Peter" passages has always been that St. Peter is for Cyprian the prototype of the bishop, while the Apostles gathered around him are the prototype of the college of presbyters. The accords well with the approximately contemporaneous writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch. (Incidentally ACW in the Bevenot citation is an abbreviation for a standard work often cited by Church historians and patristic scholars: Ancient Christian Writers).
This is a unproven, erroneous and IMO untrue statement but nevertheless will be repeated and believed ad infinitum.
You should know better than that Ksen. The Book of Revelation was written 30 years before Jesus was born. :-)
Please see my #31575. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? If you do I would like to hear/see it.
Thanks.
-ksen
Why does it always have to be "blistering" with you? You must truly have a persecution complex. You were inferring that the person might have chosen different if the environment variables were changed. I was merely pondering for you some other "ifs"..
I know, I'm just trying to do my best to spread as much Dispensationalist disinformation as I can. ;^)
-ksen
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.