Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
I'm sure the Indians never did anything to provoke the wicked White Man either.
Second, Have you ever cheered upon hearing of the US dropping bombs on Iraq or Libya?
What does modern America have to do with Christianity?
-ksen
Your belief seems to be that we are “saved for sanctification,” while the Orthodox belief which I share is that we are “saved through sanctification.”
A very succinct way of putting it.
Theological debate aside, I wonder how different our views are when applied. We both believe that our initial repentance leads us to true Baptism which leads us to the life of Sanctification. The difference seems to be in our understanding of what constitutes Sanctification, and in emphasis. At what point in this process does “Salvation” occur? We will find out for certain at the end. If I follow Christ believing that it is necessary for me to work out my “salvation with fear and trembling” and find at the end that my Salvation had never been in doubt since my Baptism, so be it. If you follow Christ believing that your life of Sanctification follows your Salvation rather than being your Salvation, and at the end find that your life of Sanctification was part of your Salvation, so be it. We’ve both entered the Kingdom. Christ Bless.
Another useful observation. Often we are differing on the order and relationship of one thing to another. But taken from a wider perspective, how we live should be the same, and the results the same.
SD
I think we all would. There is a matter of perceptions, surely. I recall seeing editorials and letters in the paper where Muslims talk about the many, many times they have expressed support for America and talked about the true meaning of Islam.
Yet those of us American "mainstreamers" are still waiting to hear a clear, loud, majoritarian statement condeming these radical "Muslims" as outside of proper Islam.
One can only conclude that some are trying to talk out of both sides of their mouth.
SD
I have a vision of angelo winding the string around his top. :)
BigMack
I never said they didn't. They were often brutal in trying to protect their lands from encroachment, and we were often brutal in making land "safe" from the savages. Don't worry, I don't buy into "noble savage" rhetoric.
Second, Have you ever cheered upon hearing of the US dropping bombs on Iraq or Libya?
What does modern America have to do with Christianity?
LOL Some Christians live here. And there actions can be indicative.
SD
However, I do know that the general Orthodox understanding is that we are currently living in the millenium.
Really, when did the 1000 year period start? Are you among yet another group that uses fuzzy math?
Pentecost, or thereabouts.
Are you among yet another group that uses hyperliteraliness? Sometimes 40 days and 40 nights is just "a long time." Might be less that forty days, might be more.
SD
Well, that's true. I'm thinking of stocking up on Sweet Tarts to hand out to my kids when we finally go into Iraq and my wife is practicing her ululations (she is half Lebanese). ;^)
-ksen
Let me be the first.
1) Justification: This happens when one first comes to believe on Christ. A sinner comes to God and trusts in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the payment of his sin debt. God judicially declares that person justifies. God imputes the righteousness of Christ to that person at that point in time. This is the stage where Heaven is guaranteed to a person.
It's so judicial.
2)Sanctification: Once someone has been Justified, they then start to be Sanctified. This is an outward working of what has already gone on inside a Believer at the moment of Justification. This process lasts the whole earthly lifetime.
OK.
3) Glorification: This happens either at death or at the Second Coming of Christ. Should a Believer die before Christ comes back, that person is ushered into the presence of God to await the Second Coming, not that time really matters in Heaven, but from our point of view there is a passage of time. Should a Believer be caught up in the Rapture then Glorification occurs then. Glorification is when our corruptible put on incorruptible, our mortality puts on immortality. Our sin nature is gone and we have received our glorified bodies. Our Salvation is complete, it is no longer a promise that we are waiting for.
What would be different if we said that people are undergoing Sanctification during their lives and, when life is over, the sanctification is completed. Glorification is the ultimate end product of sanctification. And whatever we do not sanctify in life will be finished at death.
Would you believe that?
SD
Yes.
SD
There comes a time when you need to stop the endless questioning and wondering and just believe. Throughout my life I had always known there was a God. I believe that we humans are designed with a default setting that acknowledges a Creator, we have to try to believe that there is no God. I was just never sure who God was. As a child, the only time I would go to church was when my Great-Grandmother came to visit. I would walk to church with her and when we visited her she would let me read her Bible.
I was married when I was 23 years old. When our daughter was two years old (I was 25 by then) I decided that we should start going to church. My wife knew of a little Baptist church the next town over that her sister attended. We went to that church. The first Sunday there I walked down the aisle to tell the Pastor that I wasn't sure I was going to Heaven, but that I wanted to know.
The assistant Pastor took me to his office and opened the Bible and showed me verses that I had never heard of before. He showed me Ro 3:23, that told me that everyone has sinned, no exceptions. He showed me Ro 6:23, which said that the wages of sin was death, but that we could have eternal life through the gift of Jesus Christ. He showed me John 3:36, which said that if you did not believe on the Son that God's wrath was abiding on you.
I bowed my head and acknowledged to God that I was indeed a sinner. I told Him that I believed what He said about Jesus Christ and I asked Him to forgive me because of what Jesus had done for ME. That was on November 29, 1992. That was the day that I became a Christian. My home in Heaven has been secure since that day.
I knew the Scriptures were the Word of God, not by extensive research and comparison, but by how the words spoke to my soul.
Just for fun, what if you were living in Iraq and your wife took you to a little mosque the next town over that her sister attended?
SD
Yeah, but He’s the Judge of the universe, so I think He’s allowed to be a bit judicial
OK.
Ok.
What would be different if we said that people are undergoing Sanctification during their lives and, when life is over, the sanctification is completed. Glorification is the ultimate end product of sanctification. And whatever we do not sanctify in life will be finished at death.
Would you believe that?
I would agree with you on that.
Would that make the Old and New Testaments any less the Word of God?
To answer your question, if I accepted the teachings coming out of that mosque then I would still be destined for Hell unless someone brought me the Gospel and I accepted Its message.
-ksen
I don't believe anyone should assume anyone else believes what Nate believes. I believe that the basic gist of Revelation is referring to the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. There are other prophetic elements, of course, and I am no expert on them. But Jesus is not going to come here and rule for a literal 1000 years in a literal earthly kingdom. He already is ruling the world through his Church. The Kingdom of God is here.
Also, can you show me one place in the Bible where 40 days and 40 nights is not literal??
Show me one place where it is literal. We are talking about interpretation of a phrase. You take it literally, I see it as idiomatic. I believe outside sources verify the use of the phrase in Hebrew as an idiom.
SD
Would you believe that?
I would agree with you on that.
I'm glad we could agree. The only problem is that we refer to the final, finishing of Sanctification, the act of being Glorified as "Purgation."
SD
My perception is that the few who do denounce violence add the disclaimer that America shouldn't provoke. Without fail.
Would that make the Old and New Testaments any less the Word of God?
No, of course not. I was just paralleling your tale. You knew there was a God, but had never been churched. Then you went to a church in the community where you lived, and the guy there showed you some passages from the holy book showing you how to win heaven. You accepted these.
This happens to people everyday in the wrong type of church listening to the wrong holy book. I was pointing out how lucky you are.
SD
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