The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[al_c]

can you please show me Scripture that supports the idea of Purgatory??

If/when he does, you won't accept it either because it comes from a book that you do not believe is part of the bible or else it doesn't say verbatim that purgatory is factual ("trial by fire", for example). Not trying to stir up trouble here, but from judging past conversations about purgatory, this seems to be the case.

[SoothingDave]

can you please show me Scripture that supports the idea of Purgatory??

I could, but you wouldn't believe me.

SD

[JohnnyM]

Here is the passage:

Heb 6:4-6
"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."

JM

[SoothingDave]

If you recall, my complaint was they were available for sale only. Remember chiding me for being cheap?

Let's get technical: "out of print" = "not for sale"????????????????????

Hmmmmmmm, something about that doesn't look right.

Well, I am thoroughly confused now. Perhaps we should just drop it.

SD

[al_c]

The verse you are referenceing here is being taken out of context. Jesus was not speaking about people who sin, but to people who are trying to work their way to heaven with good works, by being good people Matt. 7:21-23: This is a clear teaching that just being a good person, and doing good works will not get you to heaven. And if you are trying to work your way to heaven with good works instead of trusting that the work of Jesus is what gets us to heaven, you are working iniquities, and Jesus will say "I do not know you"

I realize that. I was just putting words into St. Peter's mouth (isn't he the one at the pearly gates?) ;o)

[JohnnyM]

Luke 16:19-31
"Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day."And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. "And he cried out and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' ""But Abraham said, "Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. "And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' "And he said, "Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house for I have five brothersin order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' ""But Abraham said, "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.""But he said, "No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' ""But he said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'''"

JM

[OLD REGGIE]

I'm sorry is that proof? Does this somehow explain how the principles of Sola Scriptura are being violated by vmatt?

What does that have to do with the price of cheese? vmatt is responsible for his interpretation just as you are for your own.

I repeat: You deliberately misrepresent what Sola Scriptura is.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Luke 16:19

[SoothingDave]

I was just putting words into St. Peter's mouth (isn't he the one at the pearly gates?)

Chapter and verse, please. :-)

Personally I don't believe that the gates will be pearly because that would mean God robbed all those little oysters.

Hey, remember when I got biblewonk to at least admit that there had to be some purging action between death and entrance to Heaven?

SD

[JohnnyM]

"We can lose our salvation by refusing it, by our actions. We can re-gain it..."

Don't you see that what you're saying is that salvation is in your hands. That you are responsible for your own salvation, which means that Christ's work on the Cross was insufficient. Could you please tell me what Hebrew 6:4-6 is saying then???

JM

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I was told pugatory was based on 1 Cor. 3:15

Becky

[vmatt]

We can lose our salvation by refusing it, by our actions.

Wrong. God knew from the beginning of time exactly who would be eternal and who would not. You do not choose God, He chooses you. God loved Jacob but hated Esau before either was born. You can chop that up all you want but no amount of hail Marys, our Fathers or indulgences will change it.

[al_c]

Thanks for posting Hebrews. This made me think of the parable of the prodigal son. I wonder ... if this son had died while out squandering his inheritance, what would have been his final destination? But he did return and repent for his sins. His father accepted him home again and yadda yadda yadda ... we all know the rest of this one.

Isn't this an example of our Lord welcoming us home after falling away? Is this a contradiction to Hebrews 6:4-6?

[al_c]

Hey, remember when I got biblewonk to at least admit that there had to be some purging action between death and entrance to Heaven?

I must have missed that one. Interesting.

[SoothingDave]

so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'

Thank you for finding the passage for me. I know the stories from all those years of hearing them at Mass, but bow to you guys' superior recall of chapter and verse.

I brought over the passage you highlighted. This story shows pretty clearly a man in hell and a man in "the limbo of the fathers." (That was the waiting area for righteous folks before Jesus came and opened Heaven.) And there is no way to bridge the gap between those damned and those saved.

So what does this have to do with Purgatory? Are you under the illusion that Catholics think that people in hell can be saved?

(Becky, this is definitely not "purgatory." I don't know who told you that. And whether it is literally true or a parable doesn't seem to make a difference.)

SD

[SoothingDave]

I repeat: You deliberately misrepresent what Sola Scriptura is.

Please read my "thought experiment" and then critique my "misrepresentation" of Sola Scriptura. Thanks.

SD

[al_c]

I was told pugatory was based on 1 Cor. 3:15

Also see Mt 12:32, 1 Pet. 3:18-20, 1 Pet. 4:6, 2 Maccabees 12:44-46.

[al_c]

ALL: I gotta get back to work, folks. I'll check back this afternoon.

God bless.