Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
I agree, Dave, but we don't simply need improvement; we need an entire "overhaul." The cure for the sickness is not an antibiotic administered BY Christ; the cure is the health of Christ Himself. Read Romans 5---the whole chapter. But out of that I'll quote verse 17:
"For if by the transgression of the one (Adam), death reigned through the one (Adam), MUCH MORE those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness, there resulted justification of life to all men.
I'm off to work, but will check in tonight--- Adieu !
Daily Mass doesn't contain all of those elements. For example there is only one reading, a psalm and a Gospel. Usually no sermon, or a very short one. Not many songs.
A Sunday Mass also includes the Opening Rite where we clear our consciences and sing Glory to God, like the shepherds on Christmas. The Liturgy of the Eucharist follows the Liturgy of the Word at every Mass. (Except Good Friday, which isn't technically a Mass anyway.) We petition the Lord with our needs and the needs of our community. We recite the Nicene Creed. We sing again of our thrice Holy Lord and his Power and Might. Then we have the re-enactment of the Lord's Supper, distribution of Communion and a final blessing.
All that in about an hour.
SD
I thought I asked this a while ago, but I can't find the post anywhere. Does anyone have a link to an online version of the Vulgate or Douay-R ?
That's what I said, Christ is the antibiotic which cures us. Grace is a gift from God, a gift of God.
SD
The newadvent.org website has the Douay-Rheims and the New American Bible online. Go to the left hand side of the front page under "Resources."
SD
Is this the purpose and goal? Should it be for each of us?
Would you like to elaborate on this? How can one not get enough grace "while we are here?" All we need is to have our sins covered by Christ's grace. Of what effect is grace beyond the point of salvation? You seem to be approaching a works based theology despite any statements to the contrary. What does "treasure" mean? What does "treasuring" entail? How does one "lose" grace (and I'm Arminian so you don't have to talk through your hat)?
There is an assurance that comes from the comfort of knowing that you are truly His. When you have a relationship you know is secure, it makes that relationship more stable, IMO. One isn't always worried that the other is not pleased with them (which wouldn't seem to be a good foundation for a relationship). Some take this too far and find, beyond comfort, complacency.
Then I am sorry for implying a meaning that you never intended.
No problem. People here do that kind of thing all the time. It's almost unavoidable in this kind of forum. You do have exquisite manners.
I said that there is nothing in the concept of Sola Scriptura to stop this guy from thinking that there are two gods IF that is what the "Holy Spirit" tells him in his private reading.
But there is, it is called context. If you think a particular portion of Scripture says something that clearly contradicts another portion, than your understanding is wrong.
There is nothing to convince this other guy that he is wrong if the "Holy Spirit" is telling him otherwise. The "Holy Spirit" has explained the "context" to him perfectly. Do you think the "Holy Spirit" doesn't know context?
That is, you can try to convince someone of something using context or other ideas, but if the "Holy Spirit" has convinced someone, how can you argue with that?
If you want to hold your personal understanding of what Scripture means, as helped along by the HS, as the final authority then you have to accept what happens to those who are confused.
I don't hold my personal understanding as authoritative. I hold Scripture as authoritative. If my understanding conflicts with Scripture than I need to rethink my understanding.
Ultimately there is no difference whatsoever between what Scripture says and what you think it says. If you go to Scripture and change your mind based upon your reading, guess what? You are still using your personal understanding of Scripture.
Has no one in the 1,700-year history of the Catholic Church ever taken your traditions out of context (proof-texting them, if you will) to come up with some unorthodox ideas?
Of course. And we teach that people who claim an understanding which does not align with the teaching of the Church are wrong. Period. We don't claim that each person, with the help of the "Holy Spirit" is to be his own judge.
Any of the Sola Scriptura people that I know would point out that the "Two Gods" doctrine is clearly wrong. Period.
What exactly are "Sola Scriptura" people? Do they have authority to tell another person what Scripture means? No. The parallel fails.
Of course most Sols Christians will tell you two gods is wrong. But that is besides the point. It's not a democracy. Sola Scriptura holds that Scripture is the final authority and what Scripture means is found by each person listening to the Holy Spirit as they read.
By your own admission people have taken Catholic Tradition out of context. Does that make you see your Tradition as suspect, and want to throw the whole thing out? Well, just because some people might take Scripture out of context and twist it does not make me want to throw out Sola Scriptura as my approach to doctrine.
Catholic doctrine holds that Tradition, the Magisterium, and Scripture all align perfectly. Any individual is not guaranteed to interpret Scripture flawlessly. A Catholic who read two gods into Scripture would be slapped down as wrong.
A Sola Christian who read two gods could listen to arguments from others about what Scripture really means. But in the end he will believe what he believes the "Holy Spirit" has told him is true. There is no earthly authority to which he must listen.
SD
Ahh... a tough question. Can one lose their Salvation?
To be brief: No.
But it isn't that simple. You need to define the standard to be most accurate. If the standard is God, then no you cannot lose your salvation. If man is the standard, then yes you can lose it. But of course, man's standard is irrelevent when it comes to Salvation.
Peace,
JWinNC
I agree with what you say mostly. Except…
It didn't really answer the question of focus on "assurance of my personal eternal salvation".
I think there is also a difference on how we, you and I, approach this relationship aspect with God, "whether He is pleased with us" for example.
thanks again for your reply, I always appreciate them.
Great!!! Stick to that plan and you will be well rewarded.
What sort of problems did you run into,
Absolutly NONE. And that is the truth. We started in the public schools, then tried private. Came across a program that was designed for homeschooling that ANYONE can do and gave it a try. Both my children were scoring post-high school on the standardized tests the public schools give every year by the time they were in the 8th grade. Not because we're such great teachers, not even teachers, it was just a good program. Look it up on the internet it's called, Accelerated Christian Education (ACE). It is non-denominational, the only "religion" they learn is bible verse memorization.
I know alot of homeschool parents who try to use programs such as ABECCA and have alot of trouble. The problem with these programs are they were designed for a classroom situation, not homeschool. Think about it. In a class room setting you have children who are all basically on the same level in each subject. In the homeschool situation (unless you have twins) each child is going to be at a different level. So if you have 2 kids you would have to teach 2 Math classes a day, 2 English so on. That is very diffuclut. The ACE program was designed that there is almost no TEACHING involved. It is a program that has ALL the teaching in the work books for the children to LEARN themselves.
and are there any groups you recommend?
We did not join any groups. Our children spent their time with us (we are self employed, so when school was done they then worked with their dad and I, and I mean actually worked to the amount of their capabilites) Our school day ran from 8:00 till 11:00, see the amount of time wasted in the school system. When work was done we then did our recreation time together also, usually involved horses:) We never tried to shelter them from the bad nasty world but was always there with them dealing with it ourselves so they could learn how themselves. Such as rodeo's. You get a good mix of the bad side of humans at rodeo's, drunks, druggies, fighters, etc. but they saw how we handled these situations so learned first hand. I think it is wrong to over shelter, they have to learn to deal with it but ALWAYS with mom and dad there with them, not just some support group.
(I know we have a little time - or at least that "homeschooling" is the only option for a couple years.)
ACE has preschool programs that give a head start on reading and so on. They have audio and video's to help with reading, and also algrebra:)
Any way we loved it, and it made our family very close, my kids are both married now, they both bought their own homes BEFORE they married but we are all still each others best friends because we were their parents first. My son is pretty much running the business now, which is why Big Mack has so much time to talk to you guys, my daughter went on to cosmotology school and is working at SuperCuts and loves it.
Don't let anyone tell you that they will be socially inept. They don't learn to be social from other kids but from you and they will be happy.
Becky
Would you like to elaborate on this? How can one not get enough grace "while we are here?" All we need is to have our sins covered by Christ's grace. Of what effect is grace beyond the point of salvation?
Sanctification. Grace transforms us. My sin is not "covered" by Christ and His grace. His grace fills me up and makes me actually worthy to stand in the presence of God. I will not be merely "acquitted," or "let off" because someone else paid the price. No, I shall be changed. I need grace to transform me, not cover me. And I need a lot because I am always failing and trying again.
You seem to be approaching a works based theology despite any statements to the contrary.
If it is a works based theology to assert that one can throw away one's inheiretance then I am gulity. If it is a works based theology to assert that our actions have consequences on our souls then I am guilty. If it is a works based theology to assert that we need to make daily decisions to obey God, that we are not robots, but free moral agents, then so be it.
What does "treasure" mean? What does "treasuring" entail? How does one "lose" grace (and I'm Arminian so you don't have to talk through your hat)?
Angelo's analogy of a video game "life meter" is not far off. We treasure our grace by trying to turn this unearned gift from God into something worthwhile, by doing good in his name while not expecting a reward. We treasure our store of grace by avoiding occasions of sin and avoiding sin. If you take your fine silver and leave it out in the rain to be tarnished, this is not "treasuring" it.
We can lose grace by sin. Having an extra-marital dalliance sure feels good but it does nothing for my soul. It makes me dirty and it builds habits of character which make it easier for me to sin the next time. This conditioning ourselves to sin is how we gradually erode our holiness, our grace, and end up being unworthy.
SD
This is a shell game. Does Christ have it or does Mary.. The argument here is not who the 'gifts' or 'graces' were given to.. it is the dispensation. All was and is Given by God through Jesus. Jesus is the meeting point, Mary isn't in the picture - not even close. And no amount of semantics or chasing your tail changes that.
Mary has no authority. And there is *only one* mediator given between God and Man - the Lord Jesus. If he's the only mediator, he's the only dispenser because he's the only channel of communication between you and God. Mary neither has any role in this, nor would she have business attempting to claim such a role. NOR does anyone have any business claiming such a role for her or anyone else. Mary didn't die for your sins to be the 1 and only mediator between man and God. She popped a baby out in God's will. Blessed: Yes. Mediator/Dispensor - Not in the lifetime of this universe!
I just used that for lack of a better term. What I meant by it was people who rely solely on Scripture as their authority. Like me. ;^)
It seems your argument could still be turned around. If a Catholic layperson came up with an unorthodox doctrine by misapplying the Scriptures, Magisterium and Tradition who says that they have to listen to the priest? Couldn't they decide for themselves, based on their misapplication of the aforementioned sources, that the priest, or whoever approached them, was wrong?
-ksen
To be brief: No.
Isn't this insistence on eternal security just the mirror opposite of the Calvinstic "Free" Will?
That is, to Calvinists, we have a "Free" Will but no matter what we do we can not choose good. No matter what we do, it is counted as "bad" This is hardly "free."
Those that are "saved" are the exact opposite. No matter what they do it is counted as "good." The actual consequences of their free choices have been removed.
SD
Sure. And assuming that they were rejecting a true teaching of the Church (and not just one renegade priest) that is when they cease being Catholic.
And a Sola Scriptura Protestant is born.
SD
SD
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