The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[SoothingDave]

All I remember is that the "ritual" meant nothing to me or my classmates. We would squirm and giggle all the time. Bob up, kneel down, mumble, mumble. All rote and no emotion.

When you were a child, you regarded things as a child. Now that you are an adult?

The way I see it is the externals "showtime" vs the internals.

Exactly. You oppose the two. Since it was an empty gesture in your childhood, you see all gestures as empty.

If you need ritual to put yourself in touch with the Lord I feel bad for you.

Some people respond to a comfortable liturgy. Something they can lose themselves in, as they give worship to God. It's not a time to flip around in your Bible, a time to learn, or a time to be centered on the self. It is a time to worship the Lord.

You don't. That's fine. But because you remember it as empty for you, doesn't mean it is empty for everyone.

There will be times, when you need the Lord the most, there will be only you.

Sure. And He will be there. Having rituals, liturgy, sacraments doesn't preclude God coming to us when we need Him most. It's not an either/or.

SD

[IMRight]

The doctrine of the Trinity; the incarnation, virgin birth, substitutionary atonement, bodily resurrection and glorious ascension, and Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ

Give the man a prize!

The rest of the list was added since then - (although none of the authors would have disagreed with any of it) except the innerency of Scripture. The link I posted links you to about half of the works in the first four volumes and I htink you'll find them usefull for future discussions.

I've never seen the "TULIP" connection before, although I know of lots of Baptists who consider themselves "Calvinists" without really knowing what Calvin had to say.

[SoothingDave]

NOYB

I didn't ask you, I asked IMRight. And he answered. Certainly if he didn't want to, he would have informed me that my questions were out of line. Since he didn't I don't see why you object.

SD

[IMRight]

I don't recognize the source of your post. Can you send me a link?

[trad_anglican]

Ritual will be meaningless without the presence of the Holy Spirit, but I think we need to be on guard against developing a dependence on emotion as well.

Ritual is a double edged sword. It is very valuable in that it involves our entire being (ourselves, our souls and bodies) in our worship. It also helps us connect to the rest of the body of Christ. I think it is consistent with the way that God deals with us. He could have redeemed the world in other ways (after all He is God) but the method He chose (the incarnation) was the one that would work best for us, because we are both physical and spiritual beings.

On the other hand, ritual can lead to empty worship, only going through the motions. Overall, I believe ritual is good.

[american colleen]

I think his family went through the motions and didn't have a real sense of God - that sounds pompous of me, and I don't mean it that way at all, honestly. I still see his mother that way - go to church to be seen and to see. God wasn't discussed in his house growing up at all, according to him. I've never heard any religious discussions there either and I've been around them for 22 years.

I think with my husband, although he is very intelligent (Masters Degree and builds databases for a living), he hasn't a whole lot of curiousity about things and is intellectually lazy (which is too bad as he is WAY smarter than me) and he doesn't care about religion. It breaks my heart because we see a lot of important things very differently as you can imagine and since he is a good person at heart, I am sad when I think 1. what he is missing, and 2., what will happen to him in the end.

[IMRight]

What if you went to your father him with some Catholic apologetic tracts and said “Dad, I’ve been participating on this computer discussion for a year now and I’m coming to think that the Church doesn’t teach what I always thought it did. I’ve met a lot of Catholics who seem to have a different faith experience than I did growing up. But I still don’t understand all of what this stuff says. I just don’t speak the same language. You’re a Catholic. Can you read through these and explain them to me - no arguments from me about my faith, just you explaining yours?” And then make sure that the books you give him have at least the basics of Christian salvation (even if clouded by “claptrap”).

[Wordsmith]

I agree, good clarification. I'll post the exact quote later, but I was reading CS Lewis last night and he summed up nicely how ritualistic worship can tip over into paganism and non-ritualistic worship can tip over into platitudes and philosophy. He has a great line about, because of this, Plato being the "doctor" for Protestants and Aristotle being the "doctor" for Catholics.

[OLD REGGIE]

I hope it works out for you as the kids get older. If not handled delicately, it can get confusing being brought up in two different churches, with somewhat different beliefs. At some point, you may just have to pick one to raise your kids in. I know, because I'm in the same position.

You could always take them to a Unitarian "Church?". There are plenty of Catholics and Jews there.

[DouglasKC]

I am confused between what Jesus taught and what you derive from it. I don't understand it such that Jesus taught us not to follow the commandments, or that we could perfectly, but rather to see them as they were in truth, how they asked us to relate to God and our fellow man. Even more as truth: If we see the truth of our existence, this love is the unavoidable and natural result. This is how spirit and truth are.
I believe Jesus is saying if you love something more than God and if you love your self more than your neighbor, you still have more to grow.

Well put. That's what the 10 commandments are: the written standard and definition of love for God (commandments 1-4) and love toward fellow man (5-10). It's our measure, our test. If we think we are growing as Christians, yet are constantly violating the 10 commandments in letter and/or spirit, then we are not developing Godly behavior.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

At some point, you may just have to pick one to raise your kids in. I know, because I'm in the same position.

If you had to pick today, where would it be?

BigMack

[OLD REGGIE]

"A pure democracy" is hardly a fundamental Christian dogma.

Is it possible the Apostles were the first "fundamental" Christians? Did they have a Hierarchy? How did they select their replacement? Just how were they not "a pure democracy"?

[SoothingDave]

Is it possible the Apostles were the first "fundamental" Christians? Did they have a Hierarchy? How did they select their replacement? Just how were they not "a pure democracy"?

LOL. These proto-egalitarian democrats apparently forgot that everyone needed to vote on stuff. Rather, they acted like they were on a mission from God to promote the Truth. Some of them even wrote letters that they expected the other Christians to obey, not vote on . How non-democratic is that? Oh, the horror!

SD

[malakhi]

and he doesn't care about religion.

Just because he doesn't now, doesn't mean he won't later. God has a way of making us grow whether we want to or not.

[IMRight]

Guess

[OLD REGGIE]

I didn't ask you, I asked IMRight

If you didn't constantly answer for others your remark wouldn't be so out of place.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Oh brother does he:)!!!!!

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Reggie, I have really liked your posts today:)

Becky

[malakhi]

You could always take them to a Unitarian "Church?". There are plenty of Catholics and Jews there.

Well, my wife likes the church she's at. Also, I was at the local U-U congregation a few times many years ago, and, to be charitable, I didn't care for the style of worship.

[SoothingDave]

If you didn't constantly answer for others your remark wouldn't be so out of place.

Why do you take offense at my asking a question to IMRight which he answered? What is your beef?

My answering other questions not explicitly directed to me is a whole nother thing. Why did you "NYOB" me, if it isn't your business either?

SD